The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Simon E.
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 19, 2018 12:55 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:44 am
Why do get discussions so easily heated on the DW?

Three issues I would like to contribute: one quotation, one question, one reference

(1) Yuk sha. Leave it there. Leave it there. Let's have some tea C.R.Lama
(2) Where lies the difference between a Ngakpa and a Togden? Lineage? Vows? Celibacy?
(3) few years ago I tumbled across David Chapman's site and found this article very intriguing https://vividness.live/2015/11/27/empti ... en-ethics/ I am very thankful to what I learnt through this text and others and I couldn't care less about the question of the acceptability of Aro'gTer

@Johnny Dangerous why did you change the thread's title?
I don't think heat is necessarily a bad thing.. :smile:

But one partial answer to your question is the presence of self-appointed Guardians of the Dharma who demand purity from others.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

dzoki
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by dzoki » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:20 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 10:52 am
dzoki wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:38 am
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:10 am
Aro Lingma may be a fantasy, or she may have been a historical person.
Aro Lingma is a fantasy, there is no historical record of her, or at least Chogyam never bothered to present one - that is apart from his Fairy tails, which have no root in any Tibetan text. Your argument is pretty much same as that of Christians, when they say: "You cannot prove that God does not exist, therefore he must exist." Which is a logical falacy.

Malcolm, sometimes I feel that you like to stir up discussion just for the sake of discussion :D and make an argument just for the sake of arguments. This issue of Aro has been beaten to death on this forum, so I am not sure that it needs to be discussed again.
This is pure projection. It is you who is stirring up discussion for the sake of it. Malcolm is moving the debate away from controversy. You are correct, the issue has been done to death...and will be again.
But what you are actually saying is that the issue won't be finished with until everyone shares your view of the matter.
In reality, you may have to settle for the fact that some sane, learned, members of this forum do not share your view of the Aro gTer, and that this does not amount to an endorsement of them.
Why not let it go?
I was referring to the fact that Malcolm had discussed the issue of authenticity of Aro in the past and I am sure he is well aware of the actions of Chogyam, who was disowned by Chime Rigzin Rinpoche, Chogyam's own guru on the grounds of spreading fake terma and giving empowerments. Furthermore Chogyam misused name of Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje and when Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche protested that, Chogyam decided to sue him.

Aro Lingma is a fictional character, becuase Togden Rangrig had no such daughter, don't you think a terton of her "stature" would be at least mentioned in his biography? Since vajrayana teaching depends on the lineage, even if the words of the teaching are not in contradiction with buddhadharma, if there is no lineage, there is no blessing. You can read biography of Terton Rangrig here:
https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... %7C1%7C374

If anybody has doubt that Aro is a fake or authentic terma you can ask senior students of Chime Rigdzin, what Rinpoche, who was himself a terton, thought about Chogyam's activitiy as a "terton". You can ask James Law, Gudrun Knuasenberger or Ugyen Chencho Rinpoche.

Simon E.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:41 pm

You are missing the point.

No one on this forum who posts regularly is an Aro member ( it appears).

Those who are members of the Aro do not contribute to this forum, most never read this forum..fact. Occasionally one or two of them in the past have dropped in, discussed the issues in a polite and rational way, then left again. That has not happened for a while.
So the authenticity or otherwise of the Aro gTair is simply not something that needs detain the members of this forum..
The Aro doesn't care what you think...

So it comes down to you repeating your opinion that the Aro is not authentic just in case someone reading the forum might be tempted to join them..But the Dharma does not need you to picket on it's behalf.
Your business is between you, your teacher and your cushion. Not the activities of a group of people in Wales who in any case do not give a damn what you think.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:07 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 8:29 am
DGA wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:13 am
DGA wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:43 pm
For those who are just now joining us, previous episodes of this program can be enjoyed at the links below:

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11438

viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6455

viewtopic.php?t=6408
more to the point...

the contributions of member sdw in one of those old threads above are of particular interest. You can see why here.

viewtopic.php?t=11438#p147417
Not really sure which contributions you are talking about here, all I found from SDW was a kind of boring argument with Greg about robes, was there something else?
The boring-ness of it is part of the point. I appreciated the patience and equanimity with which Shardrol engaged with us over these issues. I remember more than the robes discussion in there; maybe I gave the wrong link?

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Malcolm
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 pm

dzoki wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:20 pm
Furthermore Chogyam misused name of Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje and when Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche protested that, Chogyam decided to sue him.
That is not what happened. I was there, you were not.
Aro Lingma is a fictional character, becuase Togden Rangrig had no such daughter, don't you think a terton of her "stature" would be at least mentioned in his biography? Since vajrayana teaching depends on the lineage, even if the words of the teaching are not in contradiction with buddhadharma, if there is no lineage, there is no blessing. You can read biography of Terton Rangrig here:
https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... %7C1%7C374
Whatever made you think that the person described as the father of "Aro Lingma" is Nyala Rangrig Dorje? It certainly is not evident from the proffered bio one can find on the web. And you have to admit the melong tied to the guy's beard is a nice touch -- I have always found the Aro pirate themes amusing. Even if the backstory of Aro is entirely fantasy, we should keep our facts straight about what they are claiming as opposed to what they are not claiming.

What you seem to fail to understand that is that Buddhist texts are full of ahistorical persons, such as Mañjuśrī, Avalokiteśvara, Tāra, and so on. We have ballads of Gesar concerning his invasion and conquest of Germany which many Tibetans, for example, accept at face value.
If anybody has doubt that Aro is a fake or authentic terma you can ask senior students of Chime Rigdzin, what Rinpoche, who was himself a terton, thought about Chogyam's activitiy as a "terton". You can ask James Law, Gudrun Knuasenberger or Ugyen Chencho Rinpoche.
You do understand that citing chains of authority only leads back to one's own judgment, right? In the end it is we ourselves who decide what is false and what is true. No one can do that for us, not even the Buddha.

So, you have decided the Aro trip is fraudulent, and that is totally cool with me.

But let me put it you this way. If some Sakyapa or Gelugpa came up to you and said that your practice was fraudulent because it had no lineage and was just a fantasy concocted by a Tibetan named Dili Terton, how would you feel? You would feel completely disrespected. Well, I am pointing out to you that there are hundreds of people who find a great deal of value in Aroter, who follow it, try to practice it, and if they were to read your denunciations of their tradition, I can imagine that they would feel completely disrespected. So you need to put yourself in their place, and see how things feel from their point of view, and frankly, stop being so unkind to them with your self-righteous denunciations. Just as you cannot prove the validity of your tradition, you also cannot prove their tradition is false.

All we can do is live and let live and each go our separate ways, which is how Tibetans actually deal with these issues. You might try following their lead.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:03 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 pm
So you need to put yourself in their place, and see how things feel from their point of view, and frankly, stop being so unkind to them with your self-righteous denunciations. Just as you cannot prove the validity of your tradition, you also cannot prove their tradition is false.
You taking a cut of the profits or something?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by PuerAzaelis » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:07 pm

dzoki wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:38 am
Malcolm, sometimes I feel that you like to stir up discussion just for the sake of discussion :D and make an argument just for the sake of arguments.
He's not arguing, he's explaining why he's right.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Malcolm
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:23 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 pm
So you need to put yourself in their place, and see how things feel from their point of view, and frankly, stop being so unkind to them with your self-righteous denunciations. Just as you cannot prove the validity of your tradition, you also cannot prove their tradition is false.
You taking a cut of the profits or something?
Oh snap, an ad hom.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Grigoris
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:48 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:23 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:03 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 pm
So you need to put yourself in their place, and see how things feel from their point of view, and frankly, stop being so unkind to them with your self-righteous denunciations. Just as you cannot prove the validity of your tradition, you also cannot prove their tradition is false.
You taking a cut of the profits or something?
Oh snap, an ad hom.
It was a joke.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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dzogchungpa
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by dzogchungpa » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:40 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 pm
All we can do is live and let live and each go our separate ways, which is how Tibetans actually deal with these issues. You might try following their lead.

Try to remember that the next time DJKR comes up. :smile:
Everything is divided
Nothing is complete
Everything looks impressive
Do not be deceived - David Byrne

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by dzoki » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:57 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 pm
But let me put it you this way. If some Sakyapa or Gelugpa came up to you and said that your practice was fraudulent because it had no lineage and was just a fantasy concocted by a Tibetan named Dili Terton, how would you feel? You would feel completely disrespected. Well, I am pointing out to you that there are hundreds of people who find a great deal of value in Aroter, who follow it, try to practice it, and if they were to read your denunciations of their tradition, I can imagine that they would feel completely disrespected. So you need to put yourself in their place, and see how things feel from their point of view, and frankly, stop being so unkind to them with your self-righteous denunciations. Just as you cannot prove the validity of your tradition, you also cannot prove their tradition is false.

All we can do is live and let live and each go our separate ways, which is how Tibetans actually deal with these issues. You might try following their lead.
I am not sure why I should be offended or feel disrespected, everyone can have whatever opinon about me or my practice they like. I could not care less. Just because I pointed out that their lineage does not have a historical basis - I am somehow unkind to them? So if someone points out that alcohol is harmful he is disrespectuful towards alcoholics? This is quite hilarious.

Ad hom attacks removed. Please refrain from ad hominem attacks. -- Virgo

Anyway, asi I said previously, dharmawheel is an endless accumulation of concepts and lately it has become a very SJW oriented forum, which aparently does not suit a self-righteous bastard such as myself :D so I rest my case here.

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Malcolm
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:59 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:40 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 pm
All we can do is live and let live and each go our separate ways, which is how Tibetans actually deal with these issues. You might try following their lead.

Try to remember that the next time DJKR comes up. :smile:
No chance.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:02 pm

dzoki wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:57 pm

1. you have not much to say apart from stating that it is their own opinion based on their own decision (which your own counter-opinion is somehow not?)
That is the point, my opinion is mine, yours is yours, and it all boils down to what we have decided for ourselves is true, and there is nothing beyond our own opinions in these matters. So trying to cite authorities to prove that this is authentic and this is fraudulent is a fools errand.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:03 pm

dzoki wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 5:57 pm
So if someone points out that alcohol is harmful he is disrespectuful towards alcoholics? This is quite hilarious.
You have not shown that the Aro folks have harmed anyone, that is actually the point. Can you show us someone ill-used by the Aro folk? If not, then...
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Pero » Fri Jan 19, 2018 6:29 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 pm
What you seem to fail to understand that is that Buddhist texts are full of ahistorical persons, such as Mañjuśrī, Avalokiteśvara, Tāra, and so on. We have ballads of Gesar concerning his invasion and conquest of Germany which many Tibetans, for example, accept at face value.
:jawdrop:
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:04 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:44 am
Why do get discussions so easily heated on the DW?

Three issues I would like to contribute: one quotation, one question, one reference

(1) Yuk sha. Leave it there. Leave it there. Let's have some tea C.R.Lama
(2) Where lies the difference between a Ngakpa and a Togden? Lineage? Vows? Celibacy?
(3) few years ago I tumbled across David Chapman's site and found this article very intriguing https://vividness.live/2015/11/27/empti ... en-ethics/ I am very thankful to what I learnt through this text and others and I couldn't care less about the question of the acceptability of Aro'gTer

@Johnny Dangerous why did you change the thread's title?

I didn't change anything, the thread was split from another thread so has multiple titles, why do you care?
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by PeterC » Sat Jan 20, 2018 5:38 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 3:50 pm
Just as you cannot prove the validity of your tradition, you also cannot prove their tradition is false.
“Scepticism is not irrefutable, but obviously nonsensical, when it tries to raise doubts where no questions can be asked.”

I don’t disagree with you on the conclusion that there is no point in debating the validity of the Aro lineage, except for the case where a newcomer to the Dharma were asking whether or not to study with them. However from the strength of the opinions expressed here I doubt we have any readers in that category.

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 am

Are you people on drugs or something? Have you lost all capacity for independent discriminating wisdom and awareness? You are seriously comparing Doc Togden and the Aro cult to Dudjom Lingpa and Martin Luther King??? All because Malcolm had some sort of epiphany and is now grovelling to seek favor from people that he was once hurling fecal matter at?

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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:34 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 am
Are you people on drugs or something? Have you lost all capacity for independent discriminating wisdom and awareness?
OK, let's turn the 'fake terma' stuff around for the sake of balance here.

What about LOTR's Kali practice and its derivation? Whay about ChNN's Longsal visions and teachings?

I happen to admire and follow both those Gurus, but my faith in them should not be treated as superior to that of the Aro folk who follow a different vision.

Some define a Ngakpa as having received a particular empowerment, but surely it depends on who is giving it, what their own authenticity is like.
Both those Gurus have impeccable lineages.....and that is what separates them from Aro. All can have their pure visions for themselves, and it is up to their students if they have faith in them, but they can't just go around creating Ngakpas without some basis for their own authority.
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:15 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:34 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 am
Are you people on drugs or something? Have you lost all capacity for independent discriminating wisdom and awareness?
OK, let's turn the 'fake terma' stuff around for the sake of balance here.

What about LOTR's Kali practice and its derivation? Whay about ChNN's Longsal visions and teachings?

I happen to admire and follow both those Gurus, but my faith in them should not be treated as superior to that of the Aro folk who follow a different vision.

Sure, some define a Ngakpa as having received a particular empowerment, but surely it depends on who is giving it, what their own authenticity is like.
Both those Gurus have impeccable lineages.....and that is what separates them from Aro. All can have their pure visions for themselves, and it is up to their students if they have faith in them, but they can't just go around creating Ngakpas without some basis for their own authority.
First of all: You are engaging in a number of logical fallacies. Too many to even list.

Secondly: You already (partially) answered your question when you said "Both those Gurus have impeccable lineages.....and that is what separates them from Aro." There are also a number of other blindingly obvious reasons why the two aforementioned teachers differ from Aro, which I am sure I do not need to point out to you.

I will point out one though: Just having faith is not enough to make it valid.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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