The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:12 pm
No. But the only reason I brought up these two statements anyway, is to highlight your hypocrisy.

I'm done with this thread.
Well, glad you are satisfied. Now go do something more useful with your time than engaging in wild goose chases over true vs. false treasures.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:57 pm

BTW, our friend, Doc Togden, is from a recognized lineage too —— he is actually a Dudjom Tersar guy. I know a Bhutanese Khenpo, the teacher of some people here, for example, who attended Chogyam's Dudjom Tersar Troma Nagmo empowerment at Pema Osel Ling. Lama Tharchin certainly expressed no objection to Chogyam giving that empowerment there (though to be fair, they were just renting the place).
does it follow that Chogyam's disciples are ngakpa/ngakma in the Dudjom Tersar line?

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:47 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:57 pm

BTW, our friend, Doc Togden, is from a recognized lineage too —— he is actually a Dudjom Tersar guy. I know a Bhutanese Khenpo, the teacher of some people here, for example, who attended Chogyam's Dudjom Tersar Troma Nagmo empowerment at Pema Osel Ling. Lama Tharchin certainly expressed no objection to Chogyam giving that empowerment there (though to be fair, they were just renting the place).
does it follow that Chogyam's disciples are ngakpa/ngakma in the Dudjom Tersar line?
Yeah, actually.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

krodha
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by krodha » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:57 pm

I attended an Aro puja in Alameda (not too far from Pema Osel Ling) maybe 8 years ago before the local sangha disbanded, wasn't my cup of tea but nice people. The practice was done primarily in English which is unique.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:59 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:07 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:12 pm
No. But the only reason I brought up these two statements anyway, is to highlight your hypocrisy.

I'm done with this thread.
Well, glad you are satisfied. Now go do something more useful with your time than engaging in wild goose chases over true vs. false treasures.
It seems not...

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11438&start=40#p148341 ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:12 pm

Greg, if you are reading this thread still, what do you think of these two posts?
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:47 pm
DGA wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 7:57 pm

BTW, our friend, Doc Togden, is from a recognized lineage too —— he is actually a Dudjom Tersar guy. I know a Bhutanese Khenpo, the teacher of some people here, for example, who attended Chogyam's Dudjom Tersar Troma Nagmo empowerment at Pema Osel Ling. Lama Tharchin certainly expressed no objection to Chogyam giving that empowerment there (though to be fair, they were just renting the place).
does it follow that Chogyam's disciples are ngakpa/ngakma in the Dudjom Tersar line?
Yeah, actually.

heart wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:00 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:22 pm
Any takers for the question regarding Doc Chogyam's teachers?
If I remember correctly, at different times he been mentioning Dudjom Rinpoche, CR Lama, Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje and Kunzang Dorje.
Someone that was a student of LOTR told me LOTR, Lama Dawa, Lama Pema Dorje and other Ngakpas had been teaching to the Aro people in the past.

/magnus
If Magnus is correct, then it seems to me that many of us (most of us?) in the Nyingma sub must have samaya with the same teachers as the Aro folk. That is not insignificant.

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:13 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:59 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:07 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:12 pm
No. But the only reason I brought up these two statements anyway, is to highlight your hypocrisy.

I'm done with this thread.
Well, glad you are satisfied. Now go do something more useful with your time than engaging in wild goose chases over true vs. false treasures.
It seems not...

viewtopic.php?f=40&t=11438&start=40#p148341 ;)
Umm, can you enlighten me as to what that post means to you?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:18 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:12 pm
Greg, if you are reading this thread still, what do you think of these two posts?
Malcolm wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:47 pm
DGA wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 9:43 pm


does it follow that Chogyam's disciples are ngakpa/ngakma in the Dudjom Tersar line?
Yeah, actually.

heart wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:00 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:22 pm
Any takers for the question regarding Doc Chogyam's teachers?
If I remember correctly, at different times he been mentioning Dudjom Rinpoche, CR Lama, Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje and Kunzang Dorje.
Someone that was a student of LOTR told me LOTR, Lama Dawa, Lama Pema Dorje and other Ngakpas had been teaching to the Aro people in the past.

/magnus
If Magnus is correct, then it seems to me that many of us (most of us?) in the Nyingma sub must have samaya with the same teachers as the Aro folk. That is not insignificant.

I have sat in empowerments attended also by Chogyam (Vajrakilaya, HHST, NYC, 1992). That was one reason why I never opened my big mouth about the Chogaym/NYD conflict until 2001 on the Trike boards. But then, I became indignant, because I thought Aro folk were misusing NYD's name to promote themselves. The rest is history.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Harold Musetescu
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Harold Musetescu » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:31 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:36 pm

USING CAPITALS ON A FORUM IS SHOUTING. NOBODY IS DEAF!
ARE YOU SURE???

HOW ABOUT DUMB?????

HOW ABOUT BLIND???
:woohoo:

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Pero » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:32 pm

Even if you think so, writing in capital letters will not make any one of us less so. :D
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:34 pm

DGA wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:12 pm
If Magnus is correct, then it seems to me that many of us (most of us?) in the Nyingma sub must have samaya with the same teachers as the Aro folk. That is not insignificant.
Indeed. And it also seems to feed into the post in the link I shared. It seems to verify that they actually belong to a lineage of sorts. There is another post out there somewhere that was more specific about permissions from teachers for Chogyam, but I cannot seem to find it now.

Also came across this:
Alex Hubbard wrote:
grigoris wrote:Who validated the terma?
According to Ngak'chang Rinpoche Dud'jöm Rinpoche told him to practise it privately for thirteen years before teaching it.
At the same time there is this post too.

So it seems there is some tenuous evidence regarding Chogyam's legitimacy.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:40 pm

methar wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:31 pm
Mantrik wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:36 pm

USING CAPITALS ON A FORUM IS SHOUTING. NOBODY IS DEAF!
ARE YOU SURE???

HOW ABOUT DUMB?????

HOW ABOUT BLIND???
:woohoo:
Or daft....shouting louder can't fix that one! ;)
Then again, some have tried calm reason.......as they say in the UK: 'You can't fix stupid.'
http://www.khyung.com

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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florin
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by florin » Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:28 pm

According to Ratna Lingpa all authentic Treasure revealers have been disciples of Pdamasambava himself and when there are signs that they should reveal a particular teaching they do so based on certain guides that were prepared by Padamsambava himself.Then they need to go into retreat to get familiar with the treasure. Here he says that these special individuals meet with Guru Padmasambava in a dream or a vision.

According To Mipham the only treasures that can be trusted are the old ones and that if one practices these old treasures and there are no results one would know that the fault is not with the teaching.

He also says:
"It is good if one is accepted by the great Master from Oddyiana
And creates blessings for experience and realization
Or longevity , growth of the dharma and spread of the teaching
But what is the use of merely presenting something to chant ?

As for chanting, the earlier Treasures posses great blessings and can be trusted,
And i have not seen a single newly revealed Treasure that was more profound.
If relying on new teachings believing them to be more profound
You should reach accomplishment, fine; but it is rare.

When examining closely those who announce Treasure teachings,
They wish for fame, look for wealth and search for women,
And so place hope in their Treasures with expectations burning like fire.
How rare are those free from lies and deceit !

If they truly are the destined ones of Padma's blessing,
They should surely be superior to others
It would be like Buddha and his close disciples
But when examined, their wisdom,love and capacity are just like anyone else's.
.......................

If it truly is a profound teaching of Padma's blessing,
Then it makes sense to practice is continuously
and attain accomplishment
But have you not seen how some people, for the sake of wealth
Always roam about spreading their teaching by selling it to others ?

What is the use in extolling the greatness of your teaching?
If you gain accomplishments you will not have to sell your teaching to others
People wishing it will come to you!
Even so what have you achieved from the dharma?
...........
There is no one at all who experiences the famine of lacking texts to chant.
Surely, when recited, if there is a superior beneficial effect, then great.
But if accomplishments decrease and obstacles increase,
And you experience doubt, then do not recite such texts.
What is the point ?

When looking at the teaching it seems impressive and delightful to chant.
So why do things get worse when persevering diligently with faith ?
If doubt becomes the only sign of your practice and prayers
You may think that all Treasures are the same."
Tibetan Treasure Literature-Andreas Doctor.
"Bow down to me for I thirst for an infinite ocean of blood, since the innumerable torrents of floods at kalpa's end that terrify all world systems do not even wet the tip of my tongue"

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Miroku » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:08 am

Interesting to hear there is evidence of authenticity. And kinda glad. What about trying out their meditation course? http://aromeditation.org/ This could give us a chance to get an insight into their instructions and maybe even end the debate.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:23 am

Miroku wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:08 am
Interesting to hear there is evidence of authenticity. And kinda glad. What about trying out their meditation course? http://aromeditation.org/ This could give us a chance to get an insight into their instructions and maybe even end the debate.
Oh I doubt that. The recurring Aro debate obviously performs some kind of collective psychological function. :smile:
As I said in the thread from several years ago it is cathartic in some way..

There has to be some reason why a group of adults on a regular basis become extraordinarily passionate about another group of adults that most of them will never meet or have any dealings with, having fun in a small land far far away..
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PeterC » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:29 am

Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:57 pm

I don't think that ANY terma from ANY source is genuine by any 'reasonably objective standard'. Which does not mean that I believe that all termas are fake.

And ALL linages are fabricated, which doesn't mean they are not effective.
If you practice vajrayana that seems like a wholly unnecessary degree of mental gymnastics

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:32 am

PeterC wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:29 am
Simon E. wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:57 pm

I don't think that ANY terma from ANY source is genuine by any 'reasonably objective standard'. Which does not mean that I believe that all termas are fake.

And ALL linages are fabricated, which doesn't mean they are not effective.
If you practice vajrayana that seems like a wholly unnecessary degree of mental gymnastics
Okey doke. Whatever.. ;)
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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PuerAzaelis
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:50 am

Are you telling me it’s taken 11 pages for all you heavy hitters to reflect whether the authenticity of a terma is distinct from the authenticity of a lineage?

Dudjom is all over their websites. Quotes, essays, books, etc.

Also I have to confess I find the writing on their sites fairly good. Clear. Maybe I have a bias to native English speakers. (That was also why Trungpa was one of my early idols - not a native speaker but he used all those English expressions v well, “jolly good”, etc.)

Another thought: outside of academic qualifications or being recognized and or enthroned or being born into the family as it were or what have you - what other ways are there for non-Tibetans to get as deep and as serious into the whole Vajrayana scene other than like this, ie “dressing up like Pirates of the Caribbean”? (Which to a Westerner being asked to front-generate the deity only ever dressed up as an Indian Prince is kind of ironic to say the least). What does that say about Tibetan Buddhism?

Do they say whether the founding lamas went on extended multi-year retreats for example?
Last edited by PuerAzaelis on Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:00 am, edited 3 times in total.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PeterC » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:51 am

florin wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:28 pm

As for chanting, the earlier Treasures posses great blessings and can be trusted,
And i have not seen a single newly revealed Treasure that was more profound.
If relying on new teachings believing them to be more profound
You should reach accomplishment, fine; but it is rare.
Interesting, as that is not the prevailing interpretation today. The argument that newer treasures are less weakened by corrupted samaya than older ones seems to be more prevalent. Wonder when the change happened.

Harold Musetescu
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Harold Musetescu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:54 am

Well since real authenticity about lineage or recognition no longer matters, great.

I'm His Holiness Gesar the Great.

I am the sole holder of the "Gesar the Great Terma lineage and used car dealership."

I will now sell to my followers buddha costumes, fake yogi hair with top knot and this week only for $99.99 a "Junior Tulku Title".

Buy two "Junior Tulku Titles" and you can buy a used car at 20% off sticker price.

:rolleye: :jawdrop: :woohoo:

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