The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:01 am

DGA wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:47 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:30 am
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:25 am
Got it. Will PM you on this, to avoiding feeding that particular troll any further.


Dude, you're not fooling anyone. We know you don't have the balls to debate him. :wink:
I don't want a debate, and I don't want to talk about Another Man's Sac.

Um, I was referring to Simone, not you. Bit of an inside joke.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by krodha » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:01 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:45 am
Some of Jax's stuff I see on FB from time to time seems pretty well spoken to me.
Used car salesmen are also known for being well spoken.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:02 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:26 pm
My personal opinion is that this is among the most well-spoken of posts in this thread.
I assume you meant Grigoris’ post ... for my part seeing M-la of all people quote Kalama sutta is one of those rare DW epic moments that make it worthwhile hanging out here. And Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche ... words fail ... blessings and long life to the four baby boys of TUR ... 🤪
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by krodha » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:03 am

practitioner wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:45 am
I've been reading this thread wondering when he would come up. I'm curious if he now gets the same benefit of the doubt as the Aro folks?
Jax actively demeans his teachers and essentially lies about the extent of his personal and experiential knowledge of the teachings.
Last edited by krodha on Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:03 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:01 am
DGA wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:47 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 1:30 am




Dude, you're not fooling anyone. We know you don't have the balls to debate him. :wink:
I don't want a debate, and I don't want to talk about Another Man's Sac.

Um, I was referring to Simone, not you. Bit of an inside joke.
If I'm gonna be a woman, I'd like to be Simone. But that's a separate topic.

I just wanted to make reference to a Butthole Surfers album.

Methar, I'll save you the trouble and point out that we're :offtopic: , but you have to admit this is good DharmaWheel :good:

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:07 am

DGA wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:44 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:40 am
practitioner wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:45 am
I've been reading this thread wondering when he would come up. I'm curious if he now gets the same benefit of the doubt as the Aro folks?
Just because I cast complete and total doubt on this fantasy that there is some kind of authority which tells us which groups and teachers are good and which are not should not be construed in any way as my approval of anyone. I think there are a lot of people out there in the spiritual marketplace selling defective wares in all kinds of ways. The most we can say is "Caveat Emptor," and not much more.
Sure, that may be all that can be said about people, but not necessarily about specific claims that are made by those people. You've been critical of Adyashanti's teaching, for example, not because you don't trust his authority, but because you find his teaching unconvincing.

I'm more interested in discussing what various teachings say and mean, rather than the different narratives that those teachings are wrapped up in, including narratives about contemporary teachers.

Incidentally, I have long held the view that Adyashanti's looks are against him.
He is just too glamorous. Therefore he must be fake... :roll:

With regards to Jax, I speculate there is something deeper at stake, a reverse racism.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:21 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:45 am
Some of Jax's stuff I see on FB from time to time seems pretty well spoken to me.
It doesn’t to me, because its faults have been demonstrated in this forum and my intellect finds that incontestable. Likewise if someone claimed Krishnamurti or a used car salesman or a parrot taught dharma, I think those claims could likewise not withstand scrutiny for very long. But I’ve yet to see someone systematically dismantle a single statement, let alone the whole view expressed, from an Aro website in the same way. All I’ve seen is feathers getting ruffled over the mere suggestion that some mental effort is going to have to be done by me on an individual level beyond merely checking a resume.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:22 am

dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:07 am
With regards to Jax, I speculate there is something deeper at stake, a reverse racism.
Lol oh quit it.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:37 am

DGA wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:03 am
I just wanted to make reference to a Butthole Surfers album.
I noticed it, but then, I am a fan from WAY back... :twothumbsup:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:03 am

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:24 am
For example, Greg, who believes the Dharma is some timeless principle, like Plato's forms.
Take it up with the Buddha:
An ancient path rediscovered
"It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous.

"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration... I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.

"Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings."

— SN 12.65
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:08 am

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:21 am
Likewise if someone claimed Krishnamurti or a used car salesman or a parrot taught dharma, I think those claims could likewise not withstand scrutiny for very long.
Problem is that somebody here is saying that the Dharma, being a compounded phenomenon, has no stable meaning and thus anything can be Dharma as long as it is written in melodic prose, does not promote rape and pillage and generally makes a person feel happy.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PeterC » Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:51 am

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:08 am
...thus anything can be Dharma as long as it is written in melodic prose, does not promote rape and pillage and generally makes a person feel happy.
There once was a man from Oddiyana
Who mastered all the nine yanas
From a lotus he sprung
A Vidyadhara to become
But were his teachings the Dharma?

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:14 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 11:51 am
There once was a man from Oddiyana
Who mastered all the nine yanas
From a lotus he sprung
A Vidyadhara to become
But were his teachings the Dharma?
There was a man from the US
Who said that opinion is all there is.
He stated that the Dharma is compounded
and left everybody confounded.
;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:11 pm

The Buddha is not here asserting the Dharme is permanent or eternal. He is asserting that in the course of practice during the night he awakened fully that in reviewing his past lifetimes he recalled the teaching he had received from past buddhas.
Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:03 am
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 12:24 am
For example, Greg, who believes the Dharma is some timeless principle, like Plato's forms.
Take it up with the Buddha:
An ancient path rediscovered
"It is just as if a man, traveling along a wilderness track, were to see an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by people of former times. He would follow it. Following it, he would see an ancient city, an ancient capital inhabited by people of former times, complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. He would go to address the king or the king's minister, saying, 'Sire, you should know that while traveling along a wilderness track I saw an ancient path... I followed it... I saw an ancient city, an ancient capital... complete with parks, groves, & ponds, walled, delightful. Sire, rebuild that city!' The king or king's minister would rebuild the city, so that at a later date the city would become powerful, rich, & well-populated, fully grown & prosperous.

"In the same way I saw an ancient path, an ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times. And what is that ancient path, that ancient road, traveled by the Rightly Self-awakened Ones of former times? Just this noble eightfold path: right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration... I followed that path. Following it, I came to direct knowledge of birth... becoming... clinging... craving... feeling... contact... the six sense media... name-&-form... consciousness, direct knowledge of the origination of consciousness, direct knowledge of the cessation of consciousness, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of consciousness. I followed that path.

"Following it, I came to direct knowledge of fabrications, direct knowledge of the origination of fabrications, direct knowledge of the cessation of fabrications, direct knowledge of the path leading to the cessation of fabrications. Knowing that directly, I have revealed it to monks, nuns, male lay followers & female lay followers, so that this holy life has become powerful, rich, detailed, well-populated, wide-spread, proclaimed among celestial & human beings."

— SN 12.65
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:43 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:11 pm
The Buddha is not here asserting the Dharme is permanent or eternal. He is asserting that in the course of practice during the night he awakened fully that in reviewing his past lifetimes he recalled the teaching he had received from past buddhas.
Say what??? Here is the original for context: http://lirs.ru/lib/sutra/Connected_Disc ... .Vol.I.pdf Starting on page 299 of the PDF, page 601 of the book.

He makes a mention of his sorjurn in Sattvhi as a Bodhisattva but it is not clear whether he is talking about his current life just prior to his enlightenment (this is a Theravada text, remember, so the Buddha was not enlightened until he plonked his ass down under the bodhi tree, up until that fateful occasion he was a Bodhisattva). Also there is no mention in the text about teachings from previous Buddhas.

So... No!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:38 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:08 am
Problem is that somebody here is saying that the Dharma, being a compounded phenomenon, has no stable meaning and thus anything can be Dharma as long as it is written in melodic prose, does not promote rape and pillage and generally makes a person feel happy.
Yes well perhaps that can be clarified upon further consideration. Certain phenomena are a little strange in the compounded/uncompounded category, e.g. space, stillness, silence. Perhaps we can trademark our Dharma from those dharmas instead.

PS: But the point would still remain, I think. That would still be an analogy. A better analogy than others, perhaps. But who has to unpack that "perhaps"? And furthermore do it and keep it alive, without falling into anachronism?

Re: "melodic prose" - music is also weird when you look at it. I mean, what's the point? It's its own point. To hear it properly you just have to let it be what it is. Hmmmmm, sounds familiar somehow, I think I heard that from a "well-spoken" teaching ... it was either ChNNR or Mozart, lol. Maybe I need to make a list, or read a book, or listen to a teacher, or visualize that tricky seventh hand holding that conch shell, to properly understand this idea of mine or figure out if it's authentic or inauthentic ... :rolling:

Tsoknyi Rinpoche has this thing where he says ok, I'm now going to give you the final ultimate super-secret mantra empowerment please sit up and pay attention - "who cares?" That's it. Oh, wait, I forgot to make it super holy - "Om, who cares, Soha". :rolling:
Last edited by PuerAzaelis on Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:57 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by PuerAzaelis » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:42 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:08 am
...
Here's another hypothetical, what would we think of someone from Japan who came up to us and said "if you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him"?

Forget Aro, how about that wacky East Asian Buddhism?

"Mu" - how legit is that? The bouncer going to let that one into the club too?

If only we could go back to the good old days of Jambudvipa. Unfortunately some bastard called Mao kicked us out of the Garden of Eden. Now we have to deal with all this other s--t.
Last edited by PuerAzaelis on Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:20 pm, edited 5 times in total.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Karma Dorje » Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:50 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:43 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:11 pm
The Buddha is not here asserting the Dharme is permanent or eternal. He is asserting that in the course of practice during the night he awakened fully that in reviewing his past lifetimes he recalled the teaching he had received from past buddhas.
Say what??? Here is the original for context: http://lirs.ru/lib/sutra/Connected_Disc ... .Vol.I.pdf Starting on page 299 of the PDF, page 601 of the book.

He makes a mention of his sorjurn in Sattvhi as a Bodhisattva but it is not clear whether he is talking about his current life just prior to his enlightenment (this is a Theravada text, remember, so the Buddha was not enlightened until he plonked his ass down under the bodhi tree, up until that fateful occasion he was a Bodhisattva). Also there is no mention in the text about teachings from previous Buddhas.

So... No!
Eternal doesn't mean "a long time ago". Quite obviously, discovering an ancient path through a forest doesn't mean that path exists eternally. Discovering there is no self within the aggregates only makes sense from the point of view of removing ignorance-- it's not some self-existent truth. To use an analogy, Pepto Bismol is effective in treating stomach disorders but it tells you nothing about the healthy state of the digestive system.

There is no point carrying around a raft on top of your head once you have crossed the river, so why should we hypostatize the path as eternal when that is one of the extremes to be avoided?
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Jan 23, 2018 5:48 pm

PuerAzaelis wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:22 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 4:07 am
With regards to Jax, I speculate there is something deeper at stake, a reverse racism.
Lol oh quit it.

No. :smile:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jan 23, 2018 6:30 pm

Karma Dorje wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 3:50 pm
Eternal doesn't mean "a long time ago". Quite obviously, discovering an ancient path through a forest doesn't mean that path exists eternally.
I think yoou will find it is metaphorical. When the Buddha spoke of rediscovering the Ancient Path I don't think he meant rediscovering the path that existed for the period from the begining of recorded history up to the Early Middle Ages. Or, as an Indian, from 230 BCE until 13th century AD
Discovering there is no self within the aggregates only makes sense from the point of view of removing ignorance-- it's not some self-existent truth. To use an analogy, Pepto Bismol is effective in treating stomach disorders but it tells you nothing about the healthy state of the digestive system.
The teaching is about rediscovering the (already existing) truth (Dharma) of Dependent Origination. It was always there. It will always be there.
There is no point carrying around a raft on top of your head once you have crossed the river, so why should we hypostatize the path as eternal when that is one of the extremes to be avoided?
Again: do not confound the expression of truth (the teachings) with the truth itself. One is compounded and impermanent the other is eternal, as per the quoted teaching.

To tell the truth, the Buddha did prophesise the degradation and vanishing of the teachings, he gave it a 1000 years and reduced it to 500 years after the inclusion of women in the Sangha... Again though: is this literal or metaphorical? How should it be interpreted in the light of the previous statement by the Buddha?

I do believe that the interpretation (opinion) that I am giving allows both statements to stand true.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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