The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Harold Musetescu
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Harold Musetescu »

Did Aro Lingma exist?

This is a link to you may find interesting.

https://approachingaro.org/did-aro-lingma-exist

QUOTE
May 16th, 2008
Aro Lingma, the Aro terton
Aro Lingma
You may be surprised to learn that some Aro students are agnostic about the Aro lineage history. Some are outright skeptical. This is not a problem. We can practice the Aro teachings wholeheartedly, without taking the lineage history as gospel.....

The word “really” suggests that there is a single correct standard of existence—and that anything else is a lie or evasion. But the question of whether you and I exist, and how, is central to Buddhism. There is no single or simple answer......

In fact, according to the “secret” interpretation of the meaning of terma validity, the history of a terma is entirely irrelevant to its authenticity.....

The Aro lineage history also includes some figures that are only known from that history. The Aro terton herself, Aro Lingma, is an example. As with Yeshé Tsogyel, everything we know about Aro Lingma comes from visionary sources. Primarily, this is the dreams, visions, and past-life recollections of Ngak’chang Rinpoche. He is her lineage holder and the rebirth of her son.....

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence......

Absence of evidence for Aro Lingma is not at all evidence for her absence......

So did she really exist, or what?.....

In terms of objective history, there is precisely as much evidence for Aro Lingma as for Yeshé Tsogyel: none. To dismiss Aro Lingma for lack of objective historical evidence skates on extremely thin ice. That criterion would invalidate most if not all Tibetan Buddhist lineages.
So, for Tibetan Buddhists, the question must be posed in visionary terms.....

Whether Aro Lingma existed as nirmanakaya comes down to whether one thinks Ngak’chang Rinpoche’s visions are reliable. Apart from Buddhas, none of us are qualified to have an opinion about that......

Fortunately, whether Aro Lingma existed is not relevant to deciding whether to practice the Aro gTér. She might have existed but taught a false terma. Even if she did not exist as nirmanakaya, she may have delivered a true terma to Ngak’chang Rinpoche as sambhogakaya. So we might remain curious about her existence—but do not need to have an opinion.....

I mentioned earlier that a main function of lineage histories is inspiration. I find the Aro lineage history exceptionally inspiring, whether or not it is objectively “true.” .....
UNQUOTE

So it all "comes down to whether one thinks Ngak'chang Rinpoche's visions are reliable.

This link is from Ngak'chang Rinpoche's website, http://arobuddhism.org/lamas/ngakchang- ... echen.html

Ngak’chang Rinpoche and Khandro Déchen
Ngak’chang Rinpoche and Khandro Déchen are the Lineage Holders and principal Lamas of the Aro gTér Nyingma Lineage.

Ngak’chang Rinpoche is the reincarnation of Aro Yeshé, the son of the extraordinary female visionary Lama Khyungchen Aro Lingma, who founded the Aro lineage.

Between 1970 and 1984, Ngak’chang Rinpoche spent extended periods in the Himalayas receiving teachings and transmissions from Kyabjé Düd’jom Rinpoche, Kyabjé Dilgo Khyentsé Rinpoche, Künzang Dorje Rinpoche and Jomo Sam’phel Déchen, and Chhi’mèd Rig’dzin Rinpoche. During this time he accomplished all the traditional practices, and received all the necessary empowerments and transmissions, of a Nyingma Lama. Hailing from a financially disadvantaged background, he funded his trips through factory work and manual labour in Britain. He completed—in varying sections—four years in solitary retreat – often living in extremely basic conditions with little to eat.

With the encouragement of his Lamas, he began teaching in 1979. In 1989, he was awarded a doctorate in Tibetan Tantric Psychology from the Visava Bharati University of University of West Bengal. In the 1980s he was a visiting lecturer at the Institute of Transpersonal Psychology in California and has contributed articles to several books, journals, and magazines on the subject of Vajrayana Psychology. He has given several keynote presentations at international psychology conferences for the British Psychological Society, and the Association of Transpersonal Psychology in the USA

Now Ngak’chang Rinpoche is known more for his Dzogchen teaching – and for providing clear and extensive explanations of Vajrayana. He major concern is to make Dzogchen and the inner tantras comprehensible and practically applicable in the lives of working family people. He is the author of eleven books, some co-written with Khandro Déchen. He is a Vajrayana calligrapher, poet, thangka painter, multi-talented Vajrayana craftsman, and exponent of Yogic Song and Lama-dance.

So absolutely no proof of any official recognition by anyone except himself.

SELF RECOGNITION, THAT WORKS FOR ME.
Last edited by Harold Musetescu on Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Grigoris
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris »

Εxcellent, so now I can validly quote anything I want as an expression of Dharma. No more eternalists and nihilists, no more tirthika, Dharma is now anything I want it to be. Buddhism is now whatever-feels-good New Ageism! :twothumbsup:

Somehow, I don't think so.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Kris
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Kris »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:50 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:30 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:14 pmThe usual excuse Buddhists give for Bonpo texts is that some kind Buddhist wrote a text using Bonpo lingo, in order to establish some kind of connection for Bonpos with Buddhism. But what of Bon texts that have no contact with Buddhists? Do they lack blessings?
One could then ask: Do Hindu and Abrahamic (and etc...) texts lack blessings?

If you say yes then you are asserting that there is an objective measure/standard (Dharma as the source of blessings), so this extreme subjectivism you are engaging in is invalid.

If you say no, then there is no Dharma, and anything goes.
Hindus, Christians, Muslims, and Jews feel blessed by their own texts and traditions. I don't feel any blessings from their texts or traditions at all.

So the answer is both yes and no. For me, those texts have no blessings. But I certainly would not claim that they feel no blessings from those texts and traditions.

As far as I am concerned, "blessing" is a word people use to express their satisfaction that they have made a good spiritual choice for themselves, and is nothing more than this.
Right that's how I understand "blessing" to mean, instead of a type of "bhakti". I also see it to mean to be inspired and to have the motivation "I really, really want to practice".
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:41 pm Εxcellent, so now I can validly quote anything I want as an expression of Dharma. No more eternalists and nihilists, no more tirthika, Dharma is now anything I want it to be. Buddhism is now whatever-feels-good New Ageism! :twothumbsup:

Somehow, I don't think so.
This is how Theravadins feel about Mahāyanis. This is how Mahāyanis feel about Vajrayana. This is how Vajaryāna feels about Atiyoga.

Basically, the state of Buddhism today is that everyone feels everyone else is full of shit and deluded.

But as the Buddha noted in the Sutta Nipatta, the tongue is like a two-headed axe, as likely to hurt the person wielding it as it as the person it is used on.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris »

Well, if this thread has taught me one thing, it is the danger of denying the validity of relative truth. How quickly and easily denying it's validity leads to ego-centered nihilism.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:23 pm Well, if this thread has taught me one thing, it is the danger of denying the validity of relative truth. How quickly and easily denying it's validity leads to ego-centered nihilism.
Who is denying the validity of relative truth?

Related:

Earlier in this thread, you claimed that Dharma is an ultimate reality. Others said no. I don't think there's any such thing as ultimate reality at all, but I do feel that Dharma articulates an ultimate truth. Maybe more than one ultimate truth... lots of 'em. Does denying an ultimate reality mean that there's no validity to relative truth?
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris »

Quay wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:09 pmNo, Dharma is simply another fabrication. The difference though between it and most everything else is that it is not an untrue fabrication.
No. The conceptualisation of Dharma by the mind is a fabrication, Dharma is unconditioned. Otherwise it would not be a valid object of Refuge.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:23 pm Well, if this thread has taught me one thing, it is the danger of denying the validity of relative truth. How quickly and easily denying it's validity leads to ego-centered nihilism.
So you think you can prove the conventional validity of one lineage over another when they both use identical words? Good luck with that.

If any thing, this thread should have shown you that appeals to authority are pretty meaningless.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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DGA wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:40 pmWho is denying the validity of relative truth?
It is all just opinion, man! The dude does not abide anywhere.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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DGA wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:40 pmEarlier in this thread, you claimed that Dharma is an ultimate reality. Others said no. I don't think there's any such thing as ultimate reality at all, but I do feel that Dharma articulates an ultimate truth. Maybe more than one ultimate truth... lots of 'em. Does denying an ultimate reality mean that there's no validity to relative truth?
I think that there is one Ultimate Truth (it would not be ultimate if there were lots of them) and denying an Ultimate Truth (Dharma) means there is no standard by which to judge relative truths (dharmas). I believe that relative truths express (or contain various "quantities" of) ultimate truth and that is why even the biggest piece of BS can evoke a feeling of blessing. I think some relative truths approach closer to ultimate truth, than others, ie they are relatively truer.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:41 pm
Quay wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:09 pmNo, Dharma is simply another fabrication. The difference though between it and most everything else is that it is not an untrue fabrication.
No. The conceptualisation of Dharma by the mind is a fabrication, Dharma is unconditioned. Otherwise it would not be a valid object of Refuge.
And as Maitreyanatha explains in the Uttaratantra, the Dharma, and the Sangha are all impermanent, and therefore, they are not ultimate refuges. Only the Buddha is an ultimate refuge:

Because of abandonment, because of possessing deceptive phenomena,
because of nonexistence, and because of perishability,
the two Dharmas and the assembly of āryas
are not the supreme permanent refuge.
The ultimate refuge is the Buddha alone,
because the Muni has the dharmakāya.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa »

Dudes, I just totally had a pure vision of Mami Wata!

:woohoo:
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris »

dzogchungpa wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:07 pm Dudes, I just totally had a pure vision of Mami Wata!

:woohoo:
My Damballah trumps your Mami Wata any day of the week!


"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:55 pmAnd as Maitreyanatha explains in the Uttaratantra, the Dharma, and the Sangha are all impermanent, and therefore, they are not ultimate refuges. Only the Buddha is an ultimate refuge:

Because of abandonment, because of possessing deceptive phenomena,
because of nonexistence, and because of perishability,
the two Dharmas and the assembly of āryas
are not the supreme permanent refuge.
The ultimate refuge is the Buddha alone,
because the Muni has the dharmakāya.
You just appealed to authority and, like you said: "If any thing, this thread should have shown you that appeals to authority are pretty meaningless."
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
Kris
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Kris »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:15 pm
dzogchungpa wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:07 pm Dudes, I just totally had a pure vision of Mami Wata!

:woohoo:
My Damballah trumps your Mami Wata any day of the week!


And Orunmila sons you both.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:55 pmAnd as Maitreyanatha explains in the Uttaratantra, the Dharma, and the Sangha are all impermanent, and therefore, they are not ultimate refuges. Only the Buddha is an ultimate refuge:

Because of abandonment, because of possessing deceptive phenomena,
because of nonexistence, and because of perishability,
the two Dharmas and the assembly of āryas
are not the supreme permanent refuge.
The ultimate refuge is the Buddha alone,
because the Muni has the dharmakāya.
You just appealed to authority and, like you said: "If any thing, this thread should have shown you that appeals to authority are pretty meaningless."
If we both accept a text as an authority, then appeals to authority work quite well, as long as we both agree they are authoritative. But if we don't agree a text is an authority, there is no point in citing a text because there is no basis for agreement, for example, citing Buddhist texts at Christians, or Nichiren Buddhits citing Nichiren at Tibetan Buddhists, or even Nyingmapas citing terma texts at Gelugpas.

So, if you do not accept Maitreyanatha as an authority, than just say so. And if you do, what is the problem?
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm »

Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:40 pm
Grigoris wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:55 pmAnd as Maitreyanatha explains in the Uttaratantra, the Dharma, and the Sangha are all impermanent, and therefore, they are not ultimate refuges. Only the Buddha is an ultimate refuge:

Because of abandonment, because of possessing deceptive phenomena,
because of nonexistence, and because of perishability,
the two Dharmas and the assembly of āryas
are not the supreme permanent refuge.
The ultimate refuge is the Buddha alone,
because the Muni has the dharmakāya.
You just appealed to authority and, like you said: "If any thing, this thread should have shown you that appeals to authority are pretty meaningless."
If we both accept a text as an authority, then appeals to authority work quite well, as long as we both agree they are authoritative. But if we don't agree a text is an authority, there is no point in citing a text because there is no basis for agreement, for example, citing Buddhist texts at Christians, or Nichiren Buddhits citing Nichiren at Tibetan Buddhists, or even Nyingmapas citing terma texts at Gelugpas.

So, if you do not accept Maitreyanatha as an authority, than just say so. And if you do, what is the problem?
BTW, you cannot really cite ultimate truth as an authority, since the ultimate truth is just the nonestablishment and absence of true existence of conventional phenomena. In the ultimate, there is nothing to establish or reject.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Quay »

Grigoris wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:18 pm
Malcolm wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:55 pmAnd as Maitreyanatha explains in the Uttaratantra, the Dharma, and the Sangha are all impermanent, and therefore, they are not ultimate refuges. Only the Buddha is an ultimate refuge:

Because of abandonment, because of possessing deceptive phenomena,
because of nonexistence, and because of perishability,
the two Dharmas and the assembly of āryas
are not the supreme permanent refuge.
The ultimate refuge is the Buddha alone,
because the Muni has the dharmakāya.
You just appealed to authority and, like you said: "If any thing, this thread should have shown you that appeals to authority are pretty meaningless."
Kindly pardon me if I'm not correct in this, but it does seem you are not fully familiar with what an appeal to authority is. As Malcolm just noted if you both accept the authority then there is no logical fallacy in appealing to it. Further, the appeal to authority fallacy is actually about an appeal to false authority and using such an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument.

Generally speaking, in a section titled Tibetan Buddhism an appeal to the text of Maitreyanatha simply does not meet the definition of the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris »

Quay wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:59 pmKindly pardon me if I'm not correct in this, but it does seem you are not fully familiar with what an appeal to authority is. As Malcolm just noted if you both accept the authority then there is no logical fallacy in appealing to it. Further, the appeal to authority fallacy is actually about an appeal to false authority and using such an authority as evidence in your argument when the authority is not really an authority on the facts relevant to the argument.

Generally speaking, in a section titled Tibetan Buddhism an appeal to the text of Maitreyanatha simply does not meet the definition of the logical fallacy of an appeal to authority.
If, according to earlier posts by our friend Malcolm, everything is just opinion. Then there is no such thing as an authority.

In the meantime: Can you please show me the facts in Maitreyanatha's statement?

"the Muni has the dharmakaya"?

For example?

Sounds more like an opinion to me.

So he has to make up his mind: either there is truth and authority (albeit arrived at collectively), or there is no truth and authority.

This idea that he can have truth and authority when it suits him, is rather unsavoury and stinks of hypocrisy (rather than inconsistency).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA »

dzogchungpa wrote: Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:07 pm Dudes, I just totally had a pure vision of Mami Wata!

:woohoo:
For a moment I thought we were going to re-litigate this masterpiece

viewtopic.php?f=49&t=23725&sid=b8ca2510 ... 82624ad924

:reading:
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