The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Mantrik
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:46 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:15 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:34 am
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 am
Are you people on drugs or something? Have you lost all capacity for independent discriminating wisdom and awareness?
OK, let's turn the 'fake terma' stuff around for the sake of balance here.

What about LOTR's Kali practice and its derivation? Whay about ChNN's Longsal visions and teachings?

I happen to admire and follow both those Gurus, but my faith in them should not be treated as superior to that of the Aro folk who follow a different vision.

Sure, some define a Ngakpa as having received a particular empowerment, but surely it depends on who is giving it, what their own authenticity is like.
Both those Gurus have impeccable lineages.....and that is what separates them from Aro. All can have their pure visions for themselves, and it is up to their students if they have faith in them, but they can't just go around creating Ngakpas without some basis for their own authority.
First of all: You are engaging in a number of logical fallacies. Too many to even list.

Secondly: You already (partially) answered your question when you said "Both those Gurus have impeccable lineages.....and that is what separates them from Aro." There are also a number of other blindingly obvious reasons why the two aforementioned teachers differ from Aro, which I am sure I do not need to point out to you.

I will point out one though: Just having faith is not enough to make it valid.
Again, you invent what I did not say in order to argue against it. 'Just.....' was not my assertion.

However, good luck in following a Guru without faith in them. If something else motivates you to practise what they preach and see if it works, fine. Your highly charged emotional defence of LOTR's pure vision Kali practice would say to me that faith plays a huge part.

A Lama could have a pure vision tomorrow, long lineage and maturity or not. If it happened 200 years ago, and generations of people have passed it on, we are still in the same place, or maybe worse off if over time the vision's content has become diluted or amended.

It is surely simple logic that if someone claims to have a pure vision, with worthwhile teachings and practices to give us, we need to believe them. Chucking around terms like 'logical fallacies' is as odd as your propensity to answer any question except the one being posed.

My reference to lineages was related to the creation of Ngakpas, btw.
I am more concerned about those joining Aro because they want an authentic Ngakpa lineage.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:53 am

And let's just run a quick rational review of the situation:

Aro gTer have no lineage. No amount of "To quoque" logical fallacies can deny this.

The terma has not be ratified/certified/recognised by anybody other than it's writer and thus it's legitimacy is questionable.

This leaves us with one more important factor that can lend legitimacy to Aro gTer, or put an end to this pointless debate: Who is Doc's teacher? Who was the person that gave Doc permission to teach (let alone reveal terma)? I searched their site and found no information, except some vague references to their undeniably fake lineage. Undeniable, because the onus is on the people making the claim to prove it true, something which has not been done.
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:58 am

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:46 am
Again, you invent what I did not say in order to argue against it. 'Just.....' was not my assertion.
I didn't say it was. I was not accusing you of making this assertion. Unfortunately for the Aro gTer mob "just" is all they have.
It is surely simple logic that if someone claims to have a pure vision, with worthwhile teachings and practices to give us, we need to believe them.
No we don't. We have to test the validity of the pure vision, dissect it, see if it conforms to some standards (eg The Four Dharma Seals)
My reference to lineages was related to the creation of Ngakpas, btw.
I'm sorry, I do not understand what you mean by "creation of Ngakpas". Aren't Ngakpa basically just a type of Upasika/Upasaka (Buddhist lay practitioners)?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:33 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:53 am
And let's just run a quick rational review of the situation:

Aro gTer have no lineage. No amount of "To quoque" logical fallacies can deny this.

The terma has not be ratified/certified/recognised by anybody other than it's writer and thus it's legitimacy is questionable.

This leaves us with one more important factor that can lend legitimacy to Aro gTer, or put an end to this pointless debate: Who is Doc's teacher? Who was the person that gave Doc permission to teach (let alone reveal terma)? I searched their site and found no information, except some vague references to their undeniably fake lineage. Undeniable, because the onus is on the people making the claim to prove it true, something which has not been done.



All of which is irrelevant as far as the Aro themselves are concerned.
I have met many of them. They are fully functioning adults who have made a conscious choice in going with their teachers.
I would guess on the basis of their ability to debate their position that many of them are well above average in their IQ for what that's worth. They have a sophisticated grasp of the doctrinal nuances of the Vajrayana..far beyond what is the norm in most Vajrayana sanghas that I have encountered over a number of decades. They are relaxed and peaceful and positive and well disposed to other Vajrayana schools but have no time for secularised modern Buddhism....
And/But they have made a conscious decision to follow a teacher which I would not follow and neither would most people who post here regularly.
They know all the arguments put to them by those who think they are wrong..they really do and they have decided to stay with it. The 'onus would only be on them' if they were attempting to proselytise among the students of other teachers..which they are not. They really do not mind if you accept Chogyam's status or not.
I wish them well and am at peace with their choices.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Mantrik » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:43 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:58 am
Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:46 am
Again, you invent what I did not say in order to argue against it. 'Just.....' was not my assertion.
I didn't say it was. I was not accusing you of making this assertion. Unfortunately for the Aro gTer mob "just" is all they have.
It is surely simple logic that if someone claims to have a pure vision, with worthwhile teachings and practices to give us, we need to believe them.
No we don't. We have to test the validity of the pure vision, dissect it, see if it conforms to some standards (eg The Four Dharma Seals)
My reference to lineages was related to the creation of Ngakpas, btw.
I'm sorry, I do not understand what you mean by "creation of Ngakpas". Aren't Ngakpa basically just a type of Upasika/Upasaka (Buddhist lay practitioners)?
You wouldn't bother making the effort to receive or work with the pure vision practices etc.without some faith. You're making it an 'either/or' issue, which it isn't. In my experience of sadhanas and mantras, the process is also iterative - if it works, faith increases in the Guru and the practice.

Paying lip service and performing sadhanas etc. while dissecting and testing them for this and that, with no belief in them, isn't likely to get you anywhere.
Do you assume the Aro folk have not analysed and tested what they have received?
Do you know that the Aro folk are sticking with their Guru in the absence of anything being successful?

Some posts ago heart and Malcolm agreed on a definition of a Ngakpa as including a specific empowerment and samaya. However, leaving that aside, Aro are running courses and giving out robes etc. specific to that training..........it worries me people may see that as the same as empowerment in a Ngakpa lineage.
Personally, I think the 14 root downfalls is the key, but again received in an empowerment from a valid lineage. Not too bothered about the hair cutting........especially as not much grows there for the Dakinis these days!
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:17 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:33 am
All of which is irrelevant as far as the Aro themselves are concerned.
Scientologists are also not concerned with what people think of them, their beliefs and their practices.
I have met many of them. They are fully functioning adults who have made a conscious choice in going with their teachers.
So are many Jehovah's Witnesses I have had the pleasure of meeting.
I would guess on the basis of their ability to debate their position that many of them are well above average in their IQ for what that's worth.
Not much. Apparently all the member of the Nazi hierarchy had above average IQ too, for what that's worth.
They have a sophisticated grasp of the doctrinal nuances of the Vajrayana..far beyond what is the norm in most Vajrayana sanghas that I have encountered over a number of decades. They are relaxed and peaceful and positive and well disposed to other Vajrayana schools but have no time for secularised modern Buddhism....
That is great to hear. Not really relevant to the question of their authenticity, but...
They know all the arguments put to them by those who think they are wrong..they really do and they have decided to stay with it.
As cult members tend to. Do go on...
The 'onus would only be on them' if they were attempting to proselytise among the students of other teachers..which they are not.
No, the onus is on them since they make some claims, one of which is that they are a legitimate Vajrayana Ngakpa/Ngakma lineage. I believe that is enough reason for them to answer to other Vajrayana practitioners.
I wish them well and am at peace with their choices.
I wish everybody well, but whether you are at peace with their choice or not is irrelevant to whether they are authentic or not.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:21 pm

Mantrik wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:43 am
You wouldn't bother making the effort to receive or work with the pure vision practices etc.without some faith.
Indeed not.
You're making it an 'either/or' issue, which it isn't.
No I am not.
Paying lip service and performing sadhanas etc. while dissecting and testing them for this and that, with no belief in them, isn't likely to get you anywhere.
Dissecting and testing them is going to get me everywhere. Not relying on faith alone (no, I am not saying that was your main point, but it is my point) is going to ensure that I am not going to be snared into a cult.
Do you assume the Aro folk have not analysed and tested what they have received?
Do you know that the Aro folk are sticking with their Guru in the absence of anything being successful?
Nope. But then again I don't think I said anything thing like that.
Some posts ago heart and Malcolm agreed on a definition of a Ngakpa as including a specific empowerment and samaya. However, leaving that aside, Aro are running courses and giving out robes etc. specific to that training..........it worries me people may see that as the same as empowerment in a Ngakpa lineage.
That is what they are selling, isn't it?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:22 pm

Any takers for the question regarding Doc Chogyam's teachers?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:31 pm

The issue is not whether I think they are authentic. I have no intention of joining them.

The question is whether THEY think they are following an authentic path..and they do.
And that is their business..not mine.


If asked would I recommend them to a seeker? I would say clearly, be very sure what you are buying and why.
But I would say that about a number of Vajrayana teachers who are much better known and do actively prosetilyse. And I am not even talking about Dolgyal worshipers..obviously one would advise against them.

If someone were to ask me whether they should attend teachings from Chogyam or a certain very well known lama whose 'authenticity' of lineage is undisputed, I would advise them, with caution, to go to the Aro.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 am
All because Malcolm had some sort of epiphany and is now grovelling to seek favor from people that he was once hurling fecal matter at?
Well, you seem fully committed to hurling shit in my place. Carry on.
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-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: What it means to be a ngakpa

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:23 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 2:58 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 8:09 am
All because Malcolm had some sort of epiphany and is now grovelling to seek favor from people that he was once hurling fecal matter at?
Well, you seem fully committed to hurling shit in my place. Carry on.
No, I am not hurling shit. I am asking some questions in regards to evidence of their authenticity.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:24 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:31 pm
The question is whether THEY think they are following an authentic path..and they do.
Do you even need to ask that question?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Miroku » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:49 pm

I am quite confused. When it came to Sogyal, people claimed how important it is to have qualified guru. And now we are claiming that Aro can be valid just because the students believe it? Well students believe in Sogjal's innocence, people believe that homeopatics are real medicine.

But seriously it isn't so hard, why not just check on their lineage, whether those two have real masters to get the teachings from and etc. Why suddenly are we supposed to say something is valid because somebody believes it to be valid? Yes I get it validity of ChNN's Longsal teachings is also a matter of believe, but lets face it ChNN has credible lineage and etc and most importantly he is qualified.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Harold Musetescu » Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:56 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:31 pm
The issue is not whether I think they are authentic. I have no intention of joining them.

The question is whether THEY think they are following an authentic path..and they do.
And that is their business..not mine.


If asked would I recommend them to a seeker? I would say clearly, be very sure what you are buying and why.
But I would say that about a number of Vajrayana teachers who are much better known and do actively prosetilyse. And I am not even talking about Dolgyal worshipers..obviously one would advise against them.
If someone were to ask me whether they should attend teachings from Chogyam or a certain very well known lama whose 'authenticity' of lineage is undisputed, I would advise them, with caution, to go to the Aro.
Many of the followers of the late Jim Jones of Guyana were well educated people.

They all thought that Jim Jones lineage was pure and that they were all following the "right path".

They followed that "right path" to its tragic ending in the drinking of the now famous "Cool aid".

Aro is just as fake as all the other so called Lamas that have be exposed on this web site.

I won't be drinking from the "Aro" lineage "cool aid" and I would not tell anyone else to do so.

A question for you Simon E what if you advice is WRONG?

What if the Aro path is a WRONG PATH and what does that do to all their followers in their next life?

What does your advice do to you in your next life for recommending that WRONG PATH?

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by heart » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:22 pm
Any takers for the question regarding Doc Chogyam's teachers?
If I remember correctly, at different times he been mentioning Dudjom Rinpoche, CR Lama, Ngagpa Yeshe Dorje and Kunzang Dorje.
Someone that was a student of LOTR told me LOTR, Lama Dawa, Lama Pema Dorje and other Ngakpas had been teaching to the Aro people in the past.

/magnus
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by DGA » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:12 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:22 pm
Any takers for the question regarding Doc Chogyam's teachers?
This is a good question to ask if you are thinking of taking teachings from these people, or are a social scientist or historian doing research.

🤔

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:53 am
And let's just run a quick rational review of the situation:

Aro gTer have no lineage. No amount of "To quoque" logical fallacies can deny this.

The terma has not be ratified/certified/recognised by anybody other than it's writer and thus it's legitimacy is questionable.
It is not like there is a treasure ratification committee. Treasures are "ratified" because a highly respected person reviews the text by various means and decides it is good. But it is all based on the chain of authority that ends with one's own personal decision to accept or reject this or that teaching as "true or false."

This is the position the entire treasure tradition finds itself: the first well known terton, Nyangral Nyima Ozer, was not "authenticated" by anyone, and was roundly criticized by those outside his circle of disciples, and others with whom he associated who were also involved in treasure revelations.

For example, in his composition of the Indian biography of Padmasambhava, Jetsun Taranatha laughs at people who accept treasure biographies like the Life of the Lotus Born (bzang gling ma), and so on.

Nyang's successor, Guru Chowang, too was roundly criticized in 13th century Tibet for just making things up. Guru Chowang was not recognized by anyone as the reincarnation of Nyang Ral, he just went around and started telling people that he was Nyang Ral's incarnation. At that time, the treasure tradition was just getting a head of steam. Guru Chowang, BTW, is the original terton of the Seven Line Prayer that you chant everyday.

Much later on, Dili Terton, aka Dudjom Lingpa, without any teacher at all started writing down termas. But no one told him to go ahead and reveal treasures, and no one formally recognized him as the incarnation of Kathog Duddul Dorje.

Nyala Chanchub Dorje, ChNN's guru, just started revealing treasures, no one told him to. No one ratified his treasures, and they were largely unknown to anyone outside his direct circle of disciples in his region of Kham. He was well known as a physician, not a terton.

The reason I point all this out is that stating something is questionable value because it was not "ratified" by anyone in fact even applies to Mahāyāna sūtras in general, and the tantras as well.

You see, Greg, the only reason you accept the treasure tradition as valid that you have decided to do so, and since you have decided for yourself this or that treasure was a valid teaching, you seek it out.

You can try and claim that you accept these as valid because it was ratified by this or that person, but even here, you are accepting this person's authority purely on the basis of your own opinions about what to accept and what to reject. The same goes for Dhogyal, its followers, and detractors as well.And that same is true for Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and so on There is no objective authority in these matters, no objective standard by which we can confirm at the outset "this one is true, this one is false" apart from examining the teachings themselves to see if their meaning is in accord with the Dharma. Sometimes we decide that this or that does not conform to the meaning, sometimes we do. But it is all based on our personal opinions. The idea that it is based on any thing else is ridiculous.

Even more problematical is the notion that false termas contain no blessings. Let us say for example, someone reveals some "mind" treasure, in every respect conforming with the meaning of sūtra, tantra, and atiyoga. It however is denounced as false because the terton's character is suspect, etc. What does it mean to say that a treasure has no blessings? From the point of view of some Sakyas and Gelugpas, the treasure tradition in general lacks blessings completely because even though the meaning of the teaching may conform perfectly, there is no continuous lineage which can be traced back to an Indian master, and ultimately, to the Buddha.

This leaves us with one more important factor that can lend legitimacy to Aro gTer, or put an end to this pointless debate: Who is Doc's teacher?
His gurus include HH Dalai Lama, HH Sakya Trizin, HH Dudjom Rinpoche, Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje RInpoche, CR Lama, etc., but his root guru is the late Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche, who composed the Tummo section of the Khandro Thugthig.
Who was the person that gave Doc permission to teach (let alone reveal terma)? I searched their site and found no information, except some vague references to their undeniably fake lineage.
As pointed out above, many tertons just start revealing termas without being told they should reveal termas. The usual procedure is to reveal them, and then practice them for many years in secrecy. Only when signs of their efficacy arise, do tertons in general start promulgating their revelations. But their efficacy can only be proven by practicing them oneself, and attaining awakening. So too, the only way to prove them false is to practice them and fail to attain awakening.
Undeniable, because the onus is on the people making the claim to prove it true, something which has not been done.
Can you provide anything more than anecdotal evidence that any treasure is "valid?" Apart from personally engaging in their practice themselves, the only pramāṇa, authority or valid cognition, upon which one may rely upon for authenticating treasures is śabdapramāṇa, the authority that depends on the testimony of a reliable witness. But in that case, how does one establish the witness as an authority?

In the end, śabdapramāṇa amounts to no more than this, as the great Dzogchen master and scholar, Gendun Chophel remarks:

Whatever most people like appears as the truth; whatever most mouths agree on appears as a philosophical tenet. Inside of each person is a different form of valid knowledge, with an adamantine scripture supporting it.

Madman's Middle Way, pg. 63.

And:

Inferential valid knowledge is produced from direct awareness; inference analyzes whether direct perception is true or false; because the child is serving as the father's witness, I am uncomfortable about positing conventional validity.

Madman's Middle Way, pg. 62

And finally, to demonstrate the poverty of your wish for a certain proof that anything can be proven to be true or false with respect to validating a treasure and any other teaching at all:

One may think:"We concede that our decisions are unreliable, but when we follow the decisions of the Buddha, we are infallible." Then who decided the Buddha was infallible? If you say, "The great scholars and adepts like Nāgārjuna decided that he was infallible," then who decided that Nāgārjuna was infallible? If you say, "The Foremost Lama [Tshong kha pa] decided it," then who knows that the Foremost Lama is infallible? If you say, "Our kind and peerless lama, the excellent and great so and so decided," than infallibility, which depends on your own excellent lama, is decided by your own mind. In fact, therefore, it is a tiger who vouches for a lion, it is a yak who vouches for a tiger, it is a dog who vouches for a yak, it is a mouse who vouches for a dog, it is an insect who vouches for a mouse. Thus, an insect is made the final voucher for them all. Therefore, when one analyzes in detail the final basis for any decision, apart from coming back to one's own mind, nothing else whatsoever is perceived.

Madman's Middle Way, pp. 49-50

So your demand that the Aro people prove their treasures are valid is really quite foolish, and your denunciation of their teachings is based solely on your own jaundiced eye.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:47 pm

methar wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 3:56 pm
Simon E. wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 12:31 pm
The issue is not whether I think they are authentic. I have no intention of joining them.

The question is whether THEY think they are following an authentic path..and they do.
And that is their business..not mine.


If asked would I recommend them to a seeker? I would say clearly, be very sure what you are buying and why.
But I would say that about a number of Vajrayana teachers who are much better known and do actively prosetilyse. And I am not even talking about Dolgyal worshipers..obviously one would advise against them.
If someone were to ask me whether they should attend teachings from Chogyam or a certain very well known lama whose 'authenticity' of lineage is undisputed, I would advise them, with caution, to go to the Aro.
Many of the followers of the late Jim Jones of Guyana were well educated people.

They all thought that Jim Jones lineage was pure and that they were all following the "right path".

They followed that "right path" to its tragic ending in the drinking of the now famous "Cool aid".

Aro is just as fake as all the other so called Lamas that have be exposed on this web site.

I won't be drinking from the "Aro" lineage "cool aid" and I would not tell anyone else to do so.

A question for you Simon E what if you advice is WRONG?

What if the Aro path is a WRONG PATH and what does that do to all their followers in their next life?

What does your advice do to you in your next life for recommending that WRONG PATH? which
Sorry, not interested in scary stories, woo-woo capitalisation and slippery slope fallacies..

My advice would be in good fath and based on the visible and obvious fruits of the practices of the Aro students I have met.
Incidentally, they do not waste their time posting to online forums telling other people what to practice and with whom. They instead get on with their Dharma lives. Which is probably one reason that its fruitful.
Last edited by Simon E. on Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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dzogchungpa
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:47 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:30 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:53 am
And let's just run a quick rational review of the situation:

Aro gTer have no lineage. No amount of "To quoque" logical fallacies can deny this.

The terma has not be ratified/certified/recognised by anybody other than it's writer and thus it's legitimacy is questionable.
It is not like there is a treasure ratification committee. Treasures are "ratified" because a highly respected person reviews the text by various means and decides it is good. But it is all based on the chain of authority that ends with one's own personal decision to accept or reject this or that teaching as "true or false."

This is the position the entire treasure tradition finds itself: the first well known terton, Nyangral Nyima Ozer, was not "authenticated" by anyone, and was roundly criticized by those outside his circle of disciples, and others with whom he associated who were also involved in treasure revelations.

For example, in his composition of the Indian biography of Padmasambhava, Jetsun Taranatha laughs at people who accept treasure biographies like the Life of the Lotus Born (bzang gling ma), and so on.

Nyang's successor, Guru Chowang, too was roundly criticized in 13th century Tibet for just making things up. Guru Chowang was not recognized by anyone as the reincarnation of Nyang Ral, he just went around and started telling people that he was Nyang Ral's incarnation. At that time, the treasure tradition was just getting a head of steam. Guru Chowang, BTW, is the original terton of the Seven Line Prayer that you chant everyday.

Much later on, Dili Terton, aka Dudjom Lingpa, without any teacher at all started writing down termas. But no one told him to go ahead and reveal treasures, and no one formally recognized him as the incarnation of Kathog Duddul Dorje.

Nyala Chanchub Dorje, ChNN's guru, just started revealing treasures, no one told him to. No one ratified his treasures, and they were largely unknown to anyone outside his direct circle of disciples in his region of Kham. He was well known as a physician, not a terton.

The reason I point all this out is that stating something is questionable value because it was not "ratified" by anyone in fact even applies to Mahāyāna sūtras in general, and the tantras as well.

You see, Greg, the only reason you accept the treasure tradition as valid that you have decided to do so, and since you have decided for yourself this or that treasure was a valid teaching, you seek it out.

You can try and claim that you accept these as valid because it was ratified by this or that person, but even here, you are accepting this person's authority purely on the basis of your own opinions about what to accept and what to reject. The same goes for Dhogyal, its followers, and detractors as well.And that same is true for Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Christianity, and so on There is no objective authority in these matters, no objective standard by which we can confirm at the outset "this one is true, this one is false" apart from examining the teachings themselves to see if their meaning is in accord with the Dharma. Sometimes we decide that this or that does not conform to the meaning, sometimes we do. But it is all based on our personal opinions. The idea that it is based on any thing else is ridiculous.

Even more problematical is the notion that false termas contain no blessings. Let us say for example, someone reveals some "mind" treasure, in every respect conforming with the meaning of sūtra, tantra, and atiyoga. It however is denounced as false because the terton's character is suspect, etc. What does it mean to say that a treasure has no blessings? From the point of view of some Sakyas and Gelugpas, the treasure tradition in general lacks blessings completely because even though the meaning of the teaching may conform perfectly, there is no continuous lineage which can be traced back to an Indian master, and ultimately, to the Buddha.

This leaves us with one more important factor that can lend legitimacy to Aro gTer, or put an end to this pointless debate: Who is Doc's teacher?
His gurus include HH Dalai Lama, HH Sakya Trizin, HH Dudjom Rinpoche, Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje RInpoche, CR Lama, etc., but his root guru is the late Kunzang Dorje Rinpoche, who composed the Tummo section of the Khandro Thugthig.
Who was the person that gave Doc permission to teach (let alone reveal terma)? I searched their site and found no information, except some vague references to their undeniably fake lineage.
As pointed out above, many tertons just start revealing termas without being told they should reveal termas. The usual procedure is to reveal them, and then practice them for many years in secrecy. Only when signs of their efficacy arise, do tertons in general start promulgating their revelations. But their efficacy can only be proven by practicing them oneself, and attaining awakening. So too, the only way to prove them false is to practice them and fail to attain awakening.
Undeniable, because the onus is on the people making the claim to prove it true, something which has not been done.
Can you provide anything more than anecdotal evidence that any treasure is "valid?" Apart from personally engaging in their practice themselves, the only pramāṇa, authority or valid cognition, upon which one may rely upon for authenticating treasures is śabdapramāṇa, the authority that depends on the testimony of a reliable witness. But in that case, how does one establish the witness as an authority?

In the end, śabdapramāṇa amounts to no more than this, as the great Dzogchen master and scholar, Gendun Chophel remarks:

Whatever most people like appears as the truth; whatever most mouths agree on appears as a philosophical tenet. Inside of each person is a different form of valid knowledge, with an adamantine scripture supporting it.

Madman's Middle Way, pg. 63.

And:

Inferential valid knowledge is produced from direct awareness; inference analyzes whether direct perception is true or false; because the child is serving as the father's witness, I am uncomfortable about positing conventional validity.

Madman's Middle Way, pg. 62

And finally, to demonstrate the poverty of your wish for a certain proof that anything can be proven to be true or false with respect to validating a treasure and any other teaching at all:

One may think:"We concede that our decisions are unreliable, but when we follow the decisions of the Buddha, we are infallible." Then who decided the Buddha was infallible? If you say, "The great scholars and adepts like Nāgārjuna decided that he was infallible," then who decided that Nāgārjuna was infallible? If you say, "The Foremost Lama [Tshong kha pa] decided it," then who knows that the Foremost Lama is infallible? If you say, "Our kind and peerless lama, the excellent and great so and so decided," than infallibility, which depends on your own excellent lama, is decided by your own mind. In fact, therefore, it is a tiger who vouches for a lion, it is a yak who vouches for a tiger, it is a dog who vouches for a yak, it is a mouse who vouches for a dog, it is an insect who vouches for a mouse. Thus, an insect is made the final voucher for them all. Therefore, when one analyzes in detail the final basis for any decision, apart from coming back to one's own mind, nothing else whatsoever is perceived.

Madman's Middle Way, pp. 49-50

So your demand that the Aro people prove their treasures are valid is really quite foolish, and your denunciation of their teachings is based solely on your own jaundiced eye.


I dig. Maybe I'll give that Pema Khandro Rinpoche another chance!
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Malcolm
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:51 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:47 pm
I dig. Maybe I'll give that Pema Khandro Rinpoche another chance!

Feel free. At least she has taken the pains to acquire a solid academic foundation in Buddhist Studies —— that is always encouraging.

When we harbor suspicions about all these fruiting bodies sprouting from invisible rhizomes in the field of Buddhism, the first point is "who the frack are they kidding." But if in the end they harm no one, do not sexually harass, emotionally or financially abuse their students, well, in reality, who are we to criticize them?

So as I said, if you want to be in insect for her, go right ahead.
Last edited by Malcolm on Sat Jan 20, 2018 4:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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