The Aro Authenticity Debate.

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Grigoris
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:22 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:37 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:35 pm
What about the peek-a-boo nipple? Just a bit naughty!
A thought has occurred to me numerous times, that the whole Aro thing is a deliberate parody...
Has it ever occurred to you that maybe it is just a crock of shit?

I mean, it looks like a crock of shit (as do the Celtic mob). It might not be. It may just be poorly executed. I am just commenting on how it looks.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:56 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:11 am
MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:32 am
IMO, what makes it "real" is mainly the spirits agreeing to respond to the practitioners' offerings. But AFAIK, most of the purposes people have in mind for these rites are incompatible with Dharma. I used to be involved with online occult communities; I don't know why those people always experienced so many problems and turned to cursing and hexing so readily. Blood sacrifice is also common.

Compared to them, Aro is relatively benign IMO.
When I say "real" I mean with an existing historical and social pedigree.

Are Aro benign or inane?
As benign as a benign tumour.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Sennin » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:02 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:23 am
Well, Voodoo seems to have some "real" roots too. In my work with Central African refugees, they tell me all sorts of blood-curdling stories of their indigenous practices, that we clearly see in Voodoo too. imagine the original slaves mixed their practices with indigenous religious practices of America plus some of the folk aspects of Southern European Catholicism.
If they were from central they probably were referring to nganga practice. People seem to associate all atr practice with vodoun, because that's the most familiar word.(They might of said voodoo since it would be more familiar)

There's actually a hierarchy when it comes to which system is most evolved. Nganga being at the bottom because of it's association with subterranean practice. Vodoun being in the middle because of association with terrestrial/ sub lunar. Ifa being at the top because of association with celestials.

You'll find some of the more "evolved " lines and houses of Ifa don't practice any blood sacrafice or nail hammering but rely heavily on meditation on odu.

It's really not that "dark" as I have seen it discussed from those who have never been to a ceremony.
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:06 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:28 am
dzogchungpa wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:26 am
Possibly of interest: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/aro
This is CRR's (a former teacher of Doc) version of the name Aro gTer:
CRR: "Some Westerners... some ball crystal... fall down in ... Swayambhu Stupa, Nepal.
Then this some another Westerner get up then show one Tibetan high lamas. Then says "Aro!!
oh shel!!" he say. Then now he says Aro shel s now become ter - Aro ter he says. Now he’s Aro
Ter. Padmasambhava’s list inside Aro Ter s nobody’s there. About to now coming possible
1.000 that list inside not being (?) Aro Ter. Anyway ... teaching here... then like this ... false
... teachings also benefit or not I don’t know, I doubt."

GK: "Irgendein Westler hat wohl einen Kristall... eine Kristallkugel bei der Swayambhu
Stupa in Nepal verloren, und in anderer Westler hat die gefunden, und hat das dann einem
hohen tibetischen Lama gezeigt, und der hat dann vielleicht sowas gesagt wie "Aro oh shel"
was so viel heißt wie "oh eine Kristall oh, ein Kristall!". Und derjenige hat verstanden "Aro
Ter" und erzählt jetzt, dass das ein Aro Ter wäre. Rinpoche sagt, diesen Namen „Aro Ter“ hat
er in den Voraussagen von Padmasambhava, in der Liste, die Padmasambhava gegeben hat,
nirgends gefunden. Es gibt eine Liste, da sind noch Tausende von Tertöns, die kommen
sollen, und Termas, die kommen sollen. Aber dieser Name "Aro Ter" kommt darunter nicht
vor. Und, ob, wenn dann solche falschen Belehrungen oder Termas gelehrt werden, dann
zweifelt Rinpoche, ob das auch einen wirklichen Nutzen bringt."

GK translation: „Some Westerner has maybe lost a crystal ball near the Swayambhu Stupa,
and then another Westerner has found it and has shown it to a high Tibetan lama who then
maybe has said something like „Aro oh shel“ which means something like „Oh, a crystal, oh,
a crystal“. And he [the Westerner] has understood „Aro Ter“, and now he says that it is an
Aro Ter. Rinpoche says that he has not found this name „Aro Ter“ in Padmasambhava’s
prophecies, he hasn’t found it anywhere in the list that Padmasambhava has given. There is a
list of thousands of tertons to be coming, and of termas to be coming. But this name „Aro
Ter“ is not in it. And if, when such false teachings or termas are being taught, if this will be of
any real benefit - Rinpoche has his doubts.“

CRR: "If like this... crystal ball there taking necessary ... I ... if I have money ... Europe I
gave then more than hundred thousand crystal balls I buy possible, I say this everything is Ter
... I lying cheating possible ... I never do."

GK: "Wenn so ein Kristall-Ball ein Terma wäre, er sagt, dann könnte er in Europa Hunderte
von solchen Termas kaufen, aber er sagt er hat es nicht nötig, auf diese Art und Weise zu
lügen und zu betrügen."

GK translation: „If such a crystal ball would be a terma, he [Rinpoche] says, then he could
buy hundreds of termas like this in Europe, but he says he doesn’t need to lie and cheat in this
way.“

CRR: "You do that?"

GK: "I hope not!" (Gelächter/laughter)
The person that sent me the transcript also sent me the audio version.


That's hardly a ringing endorsement.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:25 pm

KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:02 pm
It's really not that "dark" as I have seen it discussed from those who have never been to a ceremony.
I am not saying it is all dark, but the stuff the guys I talk with got subjected to, almost always contains human sacrifice.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Sennin
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Sennin » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:37 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:25 pm
KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:02 pm
It's really not that "dark" as I have seen it discussed from those who have never been to a ceremony.
I am not saying it is all dark, but the stuff the guys I talk with got subjected to, almost always contains human sacrifice.
Now that's just sick.
Also I hope my tone of my words didn't come off as aggressive. I was just trying to add a bit to the discussion.
Edit: anyways :focus:
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by marting » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:38 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:25 pm
KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:02 pm
It's really not that "dark" as I have seen it discussed from those who have never been to a ceremony.
I am not saying it is all dark, but the stuff the guys I talk with got subjected to, almost always contains human sacrifice.
Vodou? No human sacrifices in vodou. You're probably listening to rumours.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Malcolm » Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:57 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:06 pm

That's hardly a ringing endorsement.
My observation is that if 100 Tibetan Lamas won't given an endorsement, the 101th will. That is all the endorsement one needs for most Westerners.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:43 pm

marting wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:38 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:25 pm
KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:02 pm
It's really not that "dark" as I have seen it discussed from those who have never been to a ceremony.
I am not saying it is all dark, but the stuff the guys I talk with got subjected to, almost always contains human sacrifice.
Vodou? No human sacrifices in vodou. You're probably listening to rumours.
Not voodoo, Poro Society in Sierra Leone, for example. The guys I see escaped from forced initiation and are willing to talk about the practices in order to denounce them. Many people from Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea and Ivory Coast have converted to Abrahamic religions so when the time for initiation arrives they find the practices unethical from their new religion's point of view and...

Human sacrifices are generally carried out in the case of initiation of high ranking members. Sacrifices by chieftains of their first born sons (remember the story of Abraham?) seem to be quite common. Society members are found in all walks of life and the organisation also infiltrates into government. Those escaping generally cannot turn to support from police, because many of the police are members of the society, so when you visit the police station wanting to file charges of kidnapping, torture, etc... it is considered breaking oaths of secrecy and normally leads to the person reporting the incident being murdered.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

climb-up
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:14 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:43 pm
marting wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:38 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:25 pm
I am not saying it is all dark, but the stuff the guys I talk with got subjected to, almost always contains human sacrifice.
Vodou? No human sacrifices in vodou. You're probably listening to rumours.
Not voodoo, Poro Society in Sierra Leone, for example. The guys I see escaped from forced initiation and are willing to talk about the practices in order to denounce them. Many people from Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea and Ivory Coast have converted to Abrahamic religions so when the time for initiation arrives they find the practices unethical from their new religion's point of view and...

Human sacrifices are generally carried out in the case of initiation of high ranking members. Sacrifices by chieftains of their first born sons (remember the story of Abraham?) seem to be quite common. Society members are found in all walks of life and the organisation also infiltrates into government. Those escaping generally cannot turn to support from police, because many of the police are members of the society, so when you visit the police station wanting to file charges of kidnapping, torture, etc... it is considered breaking oaths of secrecy and normally leads to the person reporting the incident being murdered.
I am most certainly NOT saying that the people you talked to are lying, or wrong. I know absolutely nothing about Sierra Leone (except for reading "A long way gone"), and I have heard that the African secret societies set up to enforce moral codes and taboos can get pretty dark...

...at the same time I do take note that literally every aspect of what you just has also been said, falsely, in America by "satanists." This still gets reported, but was very big in the 80's during the so-called "Satanic Panic," followed by a related but different scare in the 90's regarding false memory syndrome ("recovered memories").
Even though the they aren't on prime time you can still find born-again evenagelists sharing their testimony that they were born into a secret society of Satanists, regularly practiced human sacrifice, were "breaders" (having secret babies, thus explaining the lack of bodies and missing people from all these alleged sacrifices) and that they couldn't go to law enforcement because the cult extended up to the highest levels of of power. Conveniently they found their lord Jesus, were saved, and now are willing to risk retribution by this all powerful cult in order to spread the word.
Geraldo was big into this.

Of course there may have been individual cases of abuse under the guise of religion (something Catholics and Buddhists know something about) but these American cases were almost universally bull$h!t and used solely to either promote a church or minister, or to demonize someone who was disliked.

Again that does NOT mean that these people are not telling the truth, a group that has dedicated itself to maintaining traditional values can easily get disturbingly extreme (...ISIL, etc.). Also, things like "muti murders" do happen in places like South Africa; but the intense similarity to the American stories, and the fact that their are both delivered by converts, does make me a bit curious.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by marting » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:20 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 6:43 pm
marting wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:38 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:25 pm
I am not saying it is all dark, but the stuff the guys I talk with got subjected to, almost always contains human sacrifice.
Vodou? No human sacrifices in vodou. You're probably listening to rumours.
Not voodoo, Poro Society in Sierra Leone, for example. The guys I see escaped from forced initiation and are willing to talk about the practices in order to denounce them. Many people from Sierra Leone, Liberia, Guinea and Ivory Coast have converted to Abrahamic religions so when the time for initiation arrives they find the practices unethical from their new religion's point of view and...

Human sacrifices are generally carried out in the case of initiation of high ranking members. Sacrifices by chieftains of their first born sons (remember the story of Abraham?) seem to be quite common. Society members are found in all walks of life and the organisation also infiltrates into government. Those escaping generally cannot turn to support from police, because many of the police are members of the society, so when you visit the police station wanting to file charges of kidnapping, torture, etc... it is considered breaking oaths of secrecy and normally leads to the person reporting the incident being murdered.
Ah, OK. Still important to hear the stories with healthy skepticism. With secret societies anyone with an agenda can claim anything and it will be difficult to corroborate.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:29 pm

Yeah, whatever...
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by marting » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:35 pm

climb-up wrote:...used solely to either promote a church or minister, or to demonize someone who was disliked.
delivered by converts, does make me a bit curious.
Right. Been seen in anything from Judaism, to Freemasonry, to the CIA, to Satanism, to Vodou, to tantric practice. Whatever boogeyman in vogue at the time in social consciousness.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm

marting wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:35 pm
climb-up wrote:...used solely to either promote a church or minister, or to demonize someone who was disliked.
delivered by converts, does make me a bit curious.
Right. Been seen in anything from Judaism, to Freemasonry, to the CIA, to Satanism, to Vodou, to tantric practice. Whatever boogeyman in vogue at the time in social consciousness.
Completely irrelevant.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by marting » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm
marting wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:35 pm
climb-up wrote:...used solely to either promote a church or minister, or to demonize someone who was disliked.
delivered by converts, does make me a bit curious.
Right. Been seen in anything from Judaism, to Freemasonry, to the CIA, to Satanism, to Vodou, to tantric practice. Whatever boogeyman in vogue at the time in social consciousness.
Completely irrelevant.
At the end of the day it comes back to being non-judgemental about unfamiliar beliefs and ideas. Very true that people will create stories about other groups and people for complex reasons not necessarily in the best of intentions, but also true that some people just need to be heard and given emotional support whatever the case. Your work helping refugees in that way sounds great. :thumbsup:

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:21 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm
marting wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:35 pm
climb-up wrote:...used solely to either promote a church or minister, or to demonize someone who was disliked.
delivered by converts, does make me a bit curious.
Right. Been seen in anything from Judaism, to Freemasonry, to the CIA, to Satanism, to Vodou, to tantric practice. Whatever boogeyman in vogue at the time in social consciousness.
Completely irrelevant.
complety!?
Not even marginally or possibly relevant? Not even remotely curious that the similarities are so incredibly strong?

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:23 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:29 pm
Yeah, whatever...
Whatever what?

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:45 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:21 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm
marting wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:35 pm


Right. Been seen in anything from Judaism, to Freemasonry, to the CIA, to Satanism, to Vodou, to tantric practice. Whatever boogeyman in vogue at the time in social consciousness.
Completely irrelevant.
complety!?
Not even marginally or possibly relevant? Not even remotely curious that the similarities are so incredibly strong?
Ever heard of the "all dogs..." logical fallacy? Woof!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

climb-up
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:00 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:45 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 8:21 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:42 pm
Completely irrelevant.
complety!?
Not even marginally or possibly relevant? Not even remotely curious that the similarities are so incredibly strong?
Ever heard of the "all dogs..." logical fallacy? Woof!
Yes, I have.

If you are saying that marting's list is unfairly lumping together a lot of different things together and therefore unfairly dismisses the specifics of the information that you shared, assuming that it follows the same pattern without knowing the specifics, then I could see how you could consider that a logical fallacy.
On the other hand, the history of conspiracy theories regarding groups allegedly conducting precisely the actions that you describe certainly doesn't seem to be completely irrelevant at all.

Also, still not clear what
Yeah, whatever...
was in response to, but if it was in response to m post showing a one-to-one correspondence with the false claim of alleged survivors of "Satanic Ritual Abuse," who have converted to Christianity, and the people from Sierra Leonne who have converted to Abrahamic religions then I have to question either our high standards of logic, or your willingness to continue the conversation b mention our first hand knowledge of these groups and their practices.

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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:08 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:14 pm
(...ISIL, etc.)
Comparing ISIL to Poro Society is completely irrelevant. If I was talking about Al Shabab or Boko Haram, the comparison may have had some relevance, but Poro Society? No!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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