Oh certainly, guilty as charged.
The Aro Authenticity Debate.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
The reason we have this sort of debate is because, unfortunately, limitations of time and lifespan do not permit controlled tests on different teachings. If we had unlimited lifespans then we would, if we were rational, solve this all through experimentation. But we can’t, so much like those social scientists who can’t find a suitable natural experiment to test their hypotheses, we should look for anecdotal proof in the form of individuals who have done the treatment and observe their apparent results. And that’s where, perhaps, part of why we struggle with the Aro people. Some who have met them consider them serious practitioners. If you’d only seen their photos you would think them completely ridiculous. I’ve met a couple and found them profoundly strange though generally polite.Miroku wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:08 am Interesting to hear there is evidence of authenticity. And kinda glad. What about trying out their meditation course? http://aromeditation.org/ This could give us a chance to get an insight into their instructions and maybe even end the debate.
That said it’s not futile at all to scrutinize fringe sects even if we know there is no definitive answer. Many are genuinely dangerous. How many people have decided not to get involved in, say, NKT because they looked them up on the internet? This kind of debate performs a legitimate public service even if in this particular case it is a bit frustrating for some participants.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
I speculate there is something deeper at stake, a reverse racism. What would it mean if an entirety English-speaking group not only were recognized to teach but also actually received a genuine terma? What would it mean if a completely Western sangha played the game of Dances With Tibetans more seriously than some groups whose recent behavior is known to all? I find it odd to read comments speculating if this treasure were revealed to this person after a few drinks “down the pub” while knowing full well the recent antics of certain drunken aristocrats.
Long ago I was a Christian. The same year I left that tradition I got into a conversation with someone “down the pub” from Africa. He said something to the effect, that if neither Europe nor America was interested in “Western Culture” any more, the Africans would have it. And in fact, they’d improve on it.
I wonder what he was on about ...
Long ago I was a Christian. The same year I left that tradition I got into a conversation with someone “down the pub” from Africa. He said something to the effect, that if neither Europe nor America was interested in “Western Culture” any more, the Africans would have it. And in fact, they’d improve on it.
I wonder what he was on about ...
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
The view was and still is probably that a short lineage which is made up of the treasure revealer only is much more powerful because there is no one else in between G R and the treasure revealer. But then this newly revealed teaching needs to be demonstrated because nobody else has practised it yet. So we have this uncertainty.PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 12:51 amInteresting, as that is not the prevailing interpretation today. The argument that newer treasures are less weakened by corrupted samaya than older ones seems to be more prevalent. Wonder when the change happened.florin wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:28 pm
As for chanting, the earlier Treasures posses great blessings and can be trusted,
And i have not seen a single newly revealed Treasure that was more profound.
If relying on new teachings believing them to be more profound
You should reach accomplishment, fine; but it is rare.
As a consequence the revealer will need to go achieve all the signs and acomplisments so to prove and demonstrate that it works and engender confidence in desciples.
But Mipham says that when it comes to blessings the best thing is to combine praxticing treasure teachings from old long lineages with treasure teachings from short lineages, combination which will create some amazing and unique types of blessings.
Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Perhaps he's read Spinoza and Locke and is looking forward to the results.PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:20 am...Long ago I was a Christian. The same year I left that tradition I got into a conversation with someone “down the pub” from Africa. He said something to the effect, that if neither Europe nor America was interested in “Western Culture” any more, the Africans would have it. And in fact, they’d improve on it.
I wonder what he was on about ...
Of course without seals, ribbons, imprimaturs, and Official Validation from the U.N. Security Council Philosophy Validation Committee who can say?
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."
– Longchenpa.
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."
– Longchenpa.
Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Show me the person on this site who is supporting Sogyal (assuming that’s the drunken aristocrat you mention).PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:20 am I speculate there is something deeper at stake, a reverse racism. What would it mean if an entirety English-speaking group not only were recognized to teach but also actually received a genuine terma? What would it mean if a completely Western sangha played the game of Dances With Tibetans more seriously than some groups whose recent behavior is known to all? I find it odd to read comments speculating if this treasure were revealed to this person after a few drinks “down the pub” while knowing full well the recent antics of certain drunken aristocrats.
Long ago I was a Christian. The same year I left that tradition I got into a conversation with someone “down the pub” from Africa. He said something to the effect, that if neither Europe nor America was interested in “Western Culture” any more, the Africans would have it. And in fact, they’d improve on it.
I wonder what he was on about ...
Do people suspect Aro are making shit up because they’re white? No. They suspect that because they dress like clowns, have dubious sources for their lineage and lack ‘social proof’ for their practices. As has been debated at length, this is suspicion, not proof.
Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
I wonder too - could you elucidate?PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:20 am
Long ago I was a Christian. The same year I left that tradition I got into a conversation with someone “down the pub” from Africa. He said something to the effect, that if neither Europe nor America was interested in “Western Culture” any more, the Africans would have it. And in fact, they’d improve on it.
I wonder what he was on about ...
Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
I believe the last Aro thread here also ended with people
getting collectively tired of your commentorial style.
If you want to engage in discussion, please do so. If you just want to take shots at people (and always in favour of one side of the debate, but under pretence if neutrality), then there are probably better uses of yours and everyone else’s time.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:46 amI believe the last Aro thread here also ended with people
getting collectively tired of your commentorial style.
If you want to engage in discussion, please do so. If you just want to take shots at people (and always in favour of one side of the debate, but under pretence if neutrality), then there are probably better uses of yours and everyone else’s time.
Oh snap!
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
I’m afraid my memory is a little blurry because it was 15 years ago and we were literally down the pub for the entire night ... but as I recall this guy from South Africa was debating Christian missions with my friend who had recently been ordained as an Episcopalian minister in Britain, and it was one of those weird conversations where the black guy from Africa was the conservative almost-fundamentalist and my friend was a twee Englishman who had become an Anglican priest because “it was one of the few Christian churches which permitted him not to take his beliefs too seriously” (as I recall that was his favorite joke). Anyway the point was for this guy western ideas (or culture or philosophy or Christianity or whatever we were hotly debating) were of vital interest - which was bizarre and incomprehensible to my liberal (white) friend. Just one of those things that stuck in my head.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
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- PuerAzaelis
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
I think what I’m asking is, why is it so mind-blowing that a completely western group may have received a piece of revealed wisdom? Why is the real mind-blowing question not - why, at this point, have there not been hundreds of these treasures, revealed to westerners? I don’t have an agenda I’m genuinely curious - is this a completely unique situation? Have there been other termas revealed to non-Tibetan lamas? If the answer is no, then I think my point is legitimate - why not? Padmasambhava only ever planned to speak to native-born Tibetans? Why is that?PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:36 am Show me the person on this site who is supporting Sogyal (assuming that’s the drunken aristocrat you mention).
Do people suspect Aro are making shit up because they’re white? No. They suspect that because they dress like clowns, have dubious sources for their lineage and lack ‘social proof’ for their practices. As has been debated at length, this is suspicion, not proof.
At what point is a dead anachronism permitted to take a breath of fresh air?
PS: All religious dress like clowns.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Makes sense. Many - probably most - African churches have become doctrinally very hard-line. It’s a bit unfortunate that they consider that to be the sum of “western civilisation”...PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:56 amI’m afraid my memory is a little blurry because it was 15 years ago and we were literally down the pub for the entire night ... but as I recall this guy from South Africa was debating Christian missions with my friend who had recently been ordained as an Episcopalian minister in Britain, and it was one of those weird conversations where the black guy from Africa was the conservative almost-fundamentalist and my friend was a twee Englishman who had become an Anglican priest because “it was one of the few Christian churches which permitted him not to take his beliefs too seriously” (as I recall that was his favorite joke). Anyway the point was for this guy western ideas (or culture or philosophy or Christianity or whatever we were hotly debating) were of vital interest - which was bizarre and incomprehensible to my liberal (white) friend. Just one of those things that stuck in my head.
Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
That’s an excellent question.PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 7:14 amI think what I’m asking is, why is it so mind-blowing that a completely western group may have received a piece of revealed wisdom? Why is the real mind-blowing question not - why, at this point, have there not been hundreds of these treasures, revealed to westerners? I don’t have an agenda I’m genuinely curious - is this a completely unique situation? Have there been other termas revealed to non-Tibetan lamas? If the answer is no, then I think my point is legitimate - why not? Padmasambhava only ever planned to speak to native-born Tibetans? Why is that?PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:36 am Show me the person on this site who is supporting Sogyal (assuming that’s the drunken aristocrat you mention).
Do people suspect Aro are making shit up because they’re white? No. They suspect that because they dress like clowns, have dubious sources for their lineage and lack ‘social proof’ for their practices. As has been debated at length, this is suspicion, not proof.
At what point is a dead anachronism permitted to take a breath of fresh air?
PS: All religious dress like clowns.
There was a thread not long ago discussing the difference between a text and the mandala on which it’s based, and more generally the process by which teachings are revealed. The treasure tradition, and the pure vision tradition, are cultural processes of accommodating revealed teachings in Tibet. India had different processes, but ultimatet all tantra is revealed teaching of some form.
Other traditions do have revealed teachings - or instances of humans receiving instruction from non-human teachers - but don’t label it in quite the same way. The great Chan master Xu Yun received teachings from Manjushri in the form of a monk, for example.
So in short, I think it’s entirely possible. Whether it has happened in any particular instance is another question. Historically revealed teachings have usually been attributed to people quite advanced in their careers (though not always - Chokgyur Lingpa revealed many of his quite early in his life). So perhaps it’s just that we don’t have enough advanced non-Tibetan practitioners yet. Though that is clearly changing.
Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
I have made no claim to neutrality. I have made it clear that I think the Aro are a target for existential angst.PeterC wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:46 amI believe the last Aro thread here also ended with people
getting collectively tired of your commentorial style.
If you want to engage in discussion, please do so. If you just want to take shots at people (and always in favour of one side of the debate, but under pretence if neutrality), then there are probably better uses of yours and everyone else’s time.
But I have no emotional need to defend them, and they need no defence, they will do their thing whatever is said on this forum..so I will happily withdraw...over to you...
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
For the avoidance of doubt, what question would the explanation be explaining? Simon's response was a bit of a non sequitur to my original post
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Wait, so racism by whites moves forward and racism by other groups moves in reverse?PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:20 am I speculate there is something deeper at stake, a reverse racism.
I am so confused.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
-Padmasambhava
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
Ok fine, both words were the wrong words to use.Karma Dorje wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:05 pmWait, so racism by whites moves forward and racism by other groups moves in reverse?PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:20 am I speculate there is something deeper at stake, a reverse racism.
I am so confused.
Generally, enjoyment of speech is the gateway to poor [results]. So it becomes the foundation for generating all negative emotional states. Jampel Pawo, The Certainty of the Diamond Mind
For posts from this user, see Karma Dondrup Tashi account.
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Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:13 pmOk fine, both words were the wrong words to use.Karma Dorje wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 2:05 pmWait, so racism by whites moves forward and racism by other groups moves in reverse?PuerAzaelis wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 1:20 am I speculate there is something deeper at stake, a reverse racism.
I am so confused.
It's an interesting question, actually, how to describe this putative phenomenon. Perhaps something like "displaced spiritual chauvinism".
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.
It is pretty simple -- there isn't the slightest bit of empirical evidence that from Mahāyāna onward any of these texts, sūtra and tantras, long oral lineage or short treasure lineage, were indeed spoken by the Buddha and so on.
Based upon this, I really think the standard of accepting and rejecting Buddhist teachings ought to be based not upon their putative origin, but rather, whether or not they are well-spoken.
If someone chooses to believe all the treasures we have received to date, for example, are the words of Padmasambhava, this is just fine. But it is a conscious choice for a Westerner not raised in Tibet in the Nyingma and Kagyu traditions to believe this.
This also presents problems. Many tantras are not "well spoken" if taken literally. But tantras that might be considered mere manuals of sorcery and necromancy are rendered "well-spoken" through a process interpretive extraction of meaning.
Many treasures are very beautifully composed, and correspond well with the meaning of sūtra and tantra as we have them. Many sadhanas we have, in all schools are well-spoken, beautiful compositions, that correspond well to the interpretative pyrotechnics used to extract the meaningful essence from the raw ore of the tantras.
My personal opinion is that Dzogchen tantras are among the most well-spoken of Buddhist texts, which is one of my main reasons for being enthusiastic about them, and which require almost no need for hermeneutic strategies like the six limits and so on commonly employed to extract meaning from tantras generally understood by western scholars to be composed in India.
When confronted with the things that people like Kim Katami say, or Majorie Quinn, and frankly, many other people advertising themselves as teachers these days, their statements and theories appear to me to very crude and not well stated, not in accord with what I personally understand to be well-spoken.
When confronted with novelties like Kalima as a yidam, it is very hard, as far as I am concerned, to justify her inclusion as yidam deity, as the basis of an authentic Buddhist path. So when Christy McNally is bestowing Kāli empowerments, and Michael Roach is writing Jesus Sadhanas, I personally think it is mistaken. But, obviously no one is listening to me. In the end it is left to each of us to be responsible for own path and practice.
Thus, the concern for proving the provenance of a lineage seems to be like chasing a willow wisp, it is something always just out of grasp, and the force we use to try and catch it, just pushes it slightly more beyond our reach.
In conclusion: the only proof anyone is able to offer for the validity of their own lineage is their own faith in it; and the only proof of the invalidity of some other lineage is their lack of faith in it.
This leads us, sadly, right back to the confusion of the Kalamas and the Buddha's reply:
It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.
Based upon this, I really think the standard of accepting and rejecting Buddhist teachings ought to be based not upon their putative origin, but rather, whether or not they are well-spoken.
If someone chooses to believe all the treasures we have received to date, for example, are the words of Padmasambhava, this is just fine. But it is a conscious choice for a Westerner not raised in Tibet in the Nyingma and Kagyu traditions to believe this.
This also presents problems. Many tantras are not "well spoken" if taken literally. But tantras that might be considered mere manuals of sorcery and necromancy are rendered "well-spoken" through a process interpretive extraction of meaning.
Many treasures are very beautifully composed, and correspond well with the meaning of sūtra and tantra as we have them. Many sadhanas we have, in all schools are well-spoken, beautiful compositions, that correspond well to the interpretative pyrotechnics used to extract the meaningful essence from the raw ore of the tantras.
My personal opinion is that Dzogchen tantras are among the most well-spoken of Buddhist texts, which is one of my main reasons for being enthusiastic about them, and which require almost no need for hermeneutic strategies like the six limits and so on commonly employed to extract meaning from tantras generally understood by western scholars to be composed in India.
When confronted with the things that people like Kim Katami say, or Majorie Quinn, and frankly, many other people advertising themselves as teachers these days, their statements and theories appear to me to very crude and not well stated, not in accord with what I personally understand to be well-spoken.
When confronted with novelties like Kalima as a yidam, it is very hard, as far as I am concerned, to justify her inclusion as yidam deity, as the basis of an authentic Buddhist path. So when Christy McNally is bestowing Kāli empowerments, and Michael Roach is writing Jesus Sadhanas, I personally think it is mistaken. But, obviously no one is listening to me. In the end it is left to each of us to be responsible for own path and practice.
Thus, the concern for proving the provenance of a lineage seems to be like chasing a willow wisp, it is something always just out of grasp, and the force we use to try and catch it, just pushes it slightly more beyond our reach.
In conclusion: the only proof anyone is able to offer for the validity of their own lineage is their own faith in it; and the only proof of the invalidity of some other lineage is their lack of faith in it.
This leads us, sadly, right back to the confusion of the Kalamas and the Buddha's reply:
It is proper for you, Kalamas, to doubt, to be uncertain; uncertainty has arisen in you about what is doubtful. Come, Kalamas. Do not go upon what has been acquired by repeated hearing; nor upon tradition; nor upon rumor; nor upon what is in a scripture; nor upon surmise; nor upon an axiom; nor upon specious reasoning; nor upon a bias towards a notion that has been pondered over; nor upon another's seeming ability; nor upon the consideration, 'The monk is our teacher.' Kalamas, when you yourselves know: 'These things are bad; these things are blamable; these things are censured by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill,' abandon them.