The Aro Authenticity Debate.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17682
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:13 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:00 pm
was in response to, but if it was in response to m post showing a one-to-one correspondence with the false claim of alleged survivors of "Satanic Ritual Abuse," who have converted to Christianity, and the people from Sierra Leonne who have converted to Abrahamic religions then I have to question either our high standards of logic, or your willingness to continue the conversation b mention our first hand knowledge of these groups and their practices.
Woof!

http://www.refworld.org/docid/49db6ccb2.html
http://www.sierraleoneheritage.org/glos ... hp?id=poro

Etc...

Do you even know what Poro Society is in order to be making these comparisons???
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

marting
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:37 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by marting » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:47 pm

Recognizing the context of being an outside observer and maintaining a position of uncertainty is not the same as being dismissive. This also ties in nicely to the subject of this thread.

Soma999
Posts: 281
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2016 3:52 pm

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Soma999 » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:49 pm

African spirituality is often not well known because of its secrecy. What european call voodoo is very marginal, with the dolls and all the stuff. Some african system are extremly profund, for exemple the Dogon system. Some anthropologist show some very profund knowledge. Nganga is shaman for some places like Cameroun or Gabon. Some of those healers are extremly powerful.

marting
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2017 3:37 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by marting » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:50 pm

Soma999 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:49 pm
African spirituality is often not well known because of its secrecy. What european call voodoo is very marginal, with the dolls and all the stuff. Some african system are extremly profund, for exemple the Dogon system. Some anthropologist show some very profund knowledge. Nganga is shaman for some places like Cameroun or Gabon. Some of those healers are extremly powerful.
Probably also the most misunderstood.

climb-up
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:58 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:08 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 7:14 pm
(...ISIL, etc.)
Comparing ISIL to Poro Society is completely irrelevant. If I was talking about Al Shabab or Boko Haram, the comparison may have had some relevance, but Poro Society? No!
I don't know how you could read a general statement so out of context. Unless everyone else thought I was making an equivalency I don't really feel the need to explain this.
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:13 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:00 pm
was in response to, but if it was in response to m post showing a one-to-one correspondence with the false claim of alleged survivors of "Satanic Ritual Abuse," who have converted to Christianity, and the people from Sierra Leonne who have converted to Abrahamic religions then I have to question either our high standards of logic, or your willingness to continue the conversation b mention our first hand knowledge of these groups and their practices.
Woof!

http://www.refworld.org/docid/49db6ccb2.html
http://www.sierraleoneheritage.org/glos ... hp?id=poro

Etc...

Do you even know what Poro Society is in order to be making these comparisons???
Well, I answered that in m first post, saying that I knew almost nothing about Sierra Leonne and one a very little about some African secret societies. The two links you posted are ver much in keeping with m understanding, and I didn't see anything that surprised me.

I don't know if you actually read my post or not, the one quotes certainly seem demonstrate a complete misunderstanding of my point; but, even if you did and even if you found a flaw in my logic or a gap in my knowledge that you thought was important or leading to a total misread, I would have expected something more helpful than
woof!
Maybe an explanation of what aspects of the culture or the society make it clear that these things happened as said, or that make the claims completely different from the same claims made by others.

I can only assume that you took my post to be me acting like an a$$hole and decided to either disengage or respond in kind.
If so, I apologize. I thought I was participating in an interesting conversation.
Last edited by climb-up on Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17682
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:07 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:58 pm
If so, I apologize. I thought I was participating in an interesting conversation.
You are asking me to discount the testimonies of a substantial number of individuals, in order to agree with your analysis which is based on a lack of knowledge, a mistaken hypothesis and irrelevant evidence. Now why would I want to do that?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

climb-up
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:07 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:58 pm
If so, I apologize. I thought I was participating in an interesting conversation.
You are asking me to discount the testimonies of a substantial number of individuals, in order to agree with your analysis which is based on a lack of knowledge, a mistaken hypothesis and irrelevant evidence. Now why would I want to do that?
Your question, again, makes me think you either didn't read my post, or you read things into my post that were not there.

I am not asking you to discount anything, nor am I claiming that these did not happen. I said that there were parallels that made me curious and your response was
whatever
And
woof
As opposed to
It's not the same because...
Oh well.

User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 676
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Sennin » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:27 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:07 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:58 pm
If so, I apologize. I thought I was participating in an interesting conversation.
You are asking me to discount the testimonies of a substantial number of individuals, in order to agree with your analysis which is based on a lack of knowledge, a mistaken hypothesis and irrelevant evidence. Now why would I want to do that?
From my observation you initally stated they were from Central Africa
Well, Voodoo seems to have some "real" roots too. In my work with Central African refugees, they tell me all sorts of blood-curdling stories of their indigenous practices, that we clearly see in Voodoo too.
Then responding to this comment
marting wrote:
Vodou? No human sacrifices in vodou. You're probably listening to rumours.
you wrote:
Not voodoo, Poro Society in Sierra Leone, for example
I am trying to figure out where they are doing these human sacrifices :?

are they from central or west Africa?
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 676
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Sennin » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:32 pm

Soma999 wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:49 pm
African spirituality is often not well known because of its secrecy. What european call voodoo is very marginal, with the dolls and all the stuff. Some african system are extremly profund, for exemple the Dogon system. Some anthropologist show some very profund knowledge. Nganga is shaman for some places like Cameroun or Gabon. Some of those healers are extremly powerful.
nganga is generally lower in the hierarchy because their divination system is lacking.
Last edited by Sennin on Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

Tiago Simões
Posts: 952
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2014 8:41 pm
Location: Portugal

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Tiago Simões » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:35 pm

This thread is just going all over the place...
Then, the Licchavi Vimalakīrti spoke to the elder Śāriputra and the great disciples: “Reverends, eat of the food of the Tathāgata! It is ambrosia perfumed by the great compassion. But do not fix your minds in narrow-minded attitudes, lest you be unable to receive its gift.”

- Chapter 9, The Feast Brought by the Emanated Incarnation
The Noble Mahāyāna Sūtra “The Teaching of Vimalakīrti”

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17682
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:44 pm

climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:11 pm
It's not the same because...
Did you read the articles in the links?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

climb-up
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:05 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:44 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:11 pm
It's not the same because...
Did you read the articles in the links?
I did read it, that's why I said:
The two links you posted are very much in keeping with m understanding, and I didn't see anything that surprised me.
I may have misunderstood some part of it. I may also have missed something important.
I did see a lot of awful things happening, and I saw forced initiation talked about. I didn't see human sacrifice talked about.
I did see the power structure discussed, which may be an important counter to the similarity between testimonies of the police being involved.
I'm happy to hear what you have to say about it (other than woof ...probably not happy to hear woof! lol!); I did have three kids running around behind me so I really might have missed something.

Anyways, from a different country completely, here's a nice song we can all enjoy from South Africa about a friend of the band (featured in the video) refusing to go through with the traditional circumcision and initiation rituals, despite that making him and outcast and an "evil boy" (never a man):

Tenma
Posts: 682
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Tenma » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:06 pm

KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:27 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:07 pm
climb-up wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:58 pm
If so, I apologize. I thought I was participating in an interesting conversation.
You are asking me to discount the testimonies of a substantial number of individuals, in order to agree with your analysis which is based on a lack of knowledge, a mistaken hypothesis and irrelevant evidence. Now why would I want to do that?
From my observation you initally stated they were from Central Africa
Well, Voodoo seems to have some "real" roots too. In my work with Central African refugees, they tell me all sorts of blood-curdling stories of their indigenous practices, that we clearly see in Voodoo too.
Then responding to this comment
marting wrote:
Vodou? No human sacrifices in vodou. You're probably listening to rumours.
you wrote:
Not voodoo, Poro Society in Sierra Leone, for example
I am trying to figure out where they are doing these human sacrifices :?

are they from central or west Africa?
Dahomey of West Africa did human sacrifices, but for kings and queens' funerals, not for some black magic. Also, Vodun originates from West Africa by slaves who then mixed it with Christianity in order to keep their African customs(African gods disguised as saints, Erzuli becoming Black Virgin Mary). So yes, West Africa did human sacrifice, but not in a Western sense nor for spirits, but rather for funerals. Same with Zulus of South Africa(we saw what happened with many cows and humans when Shaka Zulu's mom died...). Even Egyptians practiced human sacrifices(or at least earlier times for dead pharaohs until around late Old and early Middle Kingdom). Vodun is simply an effort to protect African traditions. Not some black magic belief to kill someone or whatever.

User avatar
Grigoris
Global Moderator
Posts: 17682
Joined: Fri May 14, 2010 9:27 pm
Location: Greece

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Grigoris » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:21 pm

KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:27 pm
I am trying to figure out where they are doing these human sacrifices :?

are they from central or west Africa?
West Africa.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

User avatar
Sennin
Posts: 676
Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2012 1:19 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Sennin » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:34 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:21 pm
KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:27 pm
I am trying to figure out where they are doing these human sacrifices :?

are they from central or west Africa?
Central West Africa, as opposed to Far West. :smile:
Just looked around a bit. Those "witch doctors" are sick.
:cry: :cry: :cry:
Last edited by Sennin on Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Thus, there is not a single one who has entered into this teaching who fails to attain buddhahood.

User avatar
Losal Samten
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Mar 24, 2014 4:05 pm

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Losal Samten » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:37 pm

KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:34 pm
Just looked around a bit. Those "witch doctors" are sick.
:cry: :cry: :cry:
The Christians aren't necessarily better.

Lacking mindfulness, we commit every wrong. - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔
ཨོཾ་ཧ་ནུ་པྷ་ཤ་བྷ་ར་ཧེ་ཡེ་སྭཱ་ཧཱ།།
ཨཱོཾ་མ་ཏྲི་མུ་ཡེ་སལེ་འདུ།།

MiphamFan
Posts: 961
Joined: Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:46 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by MiphamFan » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:59 pm

Tenma wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:06 pm
KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:27 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:07 pm
You are asking me to discount the testimonies of a substantial number of individuals, in order to agree with your analysis which is based on a lack of knowledge, a mistaken hypothesis and irrelevant evidence. Now why would I want to do that?
From my observation you initally stated they were from Central Africa
Well, Voodoo seems to have some "real" roots too. In my work with Central African refugees, they tell me all sorts of blood-curdling stories of their indigenous practices, that we clearly see in Voodoo too.
Then responding to this comment
marting wrote:
Vodou? No human sacrifices in vodou. You're probably listening to rumours.
you wrote:
Not voodoo, Poro Society in Sierra Leone, for example
I am trying to figure out where they are doing these human sacrifices :?

are they from central or west Africa?
Dahomey of West Africa did human sacrifices, but for kings and queens' funerals, not for some black magic. Also, Vodun originates from West Africa by slaves who then mixed it with Christianity in order to keep their African customs(African gods disguised as saints, Erzuli becoming Black Virgin Mary). So yes, West Africa did human sacrifice, but not in a Western sense nor for spirits, but rather for funerals. Same with Zulus of South Africa(we saw what happened with many cows and humans when Shaka Zulu's mom died...). Even Egyptians practiced human sacrifices(or at least earlier times for dead pharaohs until around late Old and early Middle Kingdom). Vodun is simply an effort to protect African traditions. Not some black magic belief to kill someone or whatever.
Still incompatible with Dharma.

Tenma
Posts: 682
Joined: Mon Mar 13, 2017 4:25 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by Tenma » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:59 pm

MiphamFan wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:59 pm
Tenma wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:06 pm
KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:27 pm


From my observation you initally stated they were from Central Africa



Then responding to this comment

you wrote:


I am trying to figure out where they are doing these human sacrifices :?

are they from central or west Africa?
Dahomey of West Africa did human sacrifices, but for kings and queens' funerals, not for some black magic. Also, Vodun originates from West Africa by slaves who then mixed it with Christianity in order to keep their African customs(African gods disguised as saints, Erzuli becoming Black Virgin Mary). So yes, West Africa did human sacrifice, but not in a Western sense nor for spirits, but rather for funerals. Same with Zulus of South Africa(we saw what happened with many cows and humans when Shaka Zulu's mom died...). Even Egyptians practiced human sacrifices(or at least earlier times for dead pharaohs until around late Old and early Middle Kingdom). Vodun is simply an effort to protect African traditions. Not some black magic belief to kill someone or whatever.
Still incompatible with Dharma.
What did you expect?

climb-up
Posts: 444
Joined: Sat Dec 03, 2016 6:32 am

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by climb-up » Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:09 am

Losal Samten wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:37 pm
KrisW wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:34 pm
Just looked around a bit. Those "witch doctors" are sick.
:cry: :cry: :cry:
The Christians aren't necessarily better.

I only had time to watch the first 7 or 8 minutes right now, and will finish it later, but wow, that is really sad and really hard to watch. :crying:
I have read about the child witches in the past, but haven't seen this.

User avatar
dzogchungpa
Posts: 6333
Joined: Sat May 28, 2011 10:50 pm

Re: The Aro Authenticity Debate.

Post by dzogchungpa » Sun Jan 28, 2018 1:12 am

Tiago Simões wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:35 pm
This thread is just going all over the place...

If you ask me, it all fits together rather nicely.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche

Locked

Return to “Nyingma”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 26 guests