I don't know what a "paradoxy compound" is. Can you explain it a little better?
Four Dharma Seals
Re: Four Dharma Seals
Provided that the list of the three unconditioned phenomena is conclusive, what makes things like space or paradoxy conditioned or compound (the latter was the term I started with because it was how it was taught to me) ?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
Re: Four Dharma Seals
I think you might be mixing thing up, space is uncompounded because it is partless. No one knows what you mean with paradoxy.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Four Dharma Seals
Conditioned/compounded things have parts and causes. Unconditioned/uncompounded things have no parts and no causes.
Re: Four Dharma Seals
I reconsidered and I insist.
Paradoxes and time are uncomponded.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
Re: Four Dharma Seals
First time, then paradoxes.
Time:
Time is a series or cycle of events. Because this arises, that arises; as that arises, this arises. It is how sentient beings experience things. Another word for time is samsara.
Because the experience of time can be analyzed into discrete parts, it is a compounded thing. Time is compounded.
Paradoxes:
weitsicht claims that "Paradoxes and time are uncompounded." If one paradox can be shown to be compounded, then this claim is disproven (eg, not all paradoxes are uncompounded). So it is adequate to analyze only one paradox to test this claim.
Here is an example of a paradox. Consider the one many of us were confronted with as children. Someone gives you a sheet of paper. One one side is written: "The statement on the other side of this paper is true." So you flip it over. What do you read? "The statement on the other side of this paper is false." This is a paradox: something that is both true and false at the same time.
This paradox is made of parts, specifically two claims that are in contradiction. This paradox, then, is compounded.
The same principle holds for more complex paradoxes, such as the paradox of Achilles and the tortoise. It's made of parts. It arises due to causes and conditions. Compounded.
I think all paradoxes are like this.
Can you give an example of a paradox that is uncompounded?
How would you show that time is uncompounded?
Re: Four Dharma Seals
You can insist all you like, but paradoxes are not listed, and time is definitely compounded since it is divided into past, present, and future.
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Re: Four Dharma Seals
What do you believe is meant by "compounded"?
A paradox is pretty much compounded by definition, involving as it does the seeming irreconcilability of opposite things, as DGA says.
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Re: Four Dharma Seals
Kunga Lhadzom wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 5:38 amSpace is partless ? How about oxygen or dark matter being part of space ?
What is considered "space" ???
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/twotruths-india/Ultimate reality is of two types: the compounded (saṁskṛta) ultimate, and the uncompounded (asaṁskṛta) ultimate. The uncompounded ultimate consists of (a) space (akāśa), and (b) nirvāṇa—analytical cessation (pratisaṁkyā-nirodha) and non-analytical cessation (apratisaṁkhyā-nirodha). These three ultimates are uncompounded as each is seen as being causally unconditioned. They are nonspatial concepts. These concepts do not have any physical referent whatsoever. Space is a mere absence of entity. Analytical and nonanalytical cessations are the two forms of nirvāṇa, which is simply freedom from afflictive suffering, or the elimination of afflictive suffering. These concepts are not associated in positing any thing that can be described as remotely physical. They are thus the concepts that are irreducible physically and logically.
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: Four Dharma Seals
Yes. And still, it does not reflect the ultimate view in which time happens instantaneous.
The physicist says Time is relative and in negative matter time can flow backwards.
How or whether this goes together? I don't know...
Same here, the mind creates this compounded view.
No probably not, where do you have that from?
But maybe time only exists in samsara.
Does time need a mind to being experienced? Would time exist without matter?
For the former the physicist says "not my job to consider". For the latter he says "I can't say, you cannot measure before big bang"
After some further reading http://www.buddhanet.net/timeimpe.htm I come to the following intermediary conclusion:
What the physicist calls asymmetry is where samsara and time happen.
Maybe in nirvana, time is absent, hence not part of that list?
Of course the paradox's example is compounded. However, that doesn't make the bare gedankenexperiment compounded.
Paradox is an abstract term as much as sky is.
But Paradox is also different from gravitation (that functions only in the presence of two masses) or light (which is compound by photons).
Quantum computers operate on the basis of a paradox. Like Schrödinger's cat. Something is going on in the box. You don't know what but you can be sure that it does. Somehow the operability of quantum computers is based on trust.
Key question is: can a paradox exist without the mind / the one who considers it?
I guess so, still need to think this one.
Maybe "being compounded" and "inherent existence" are synonymous? Does paradox have an inherent existence?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
Re: Four Dharma Seals
Actually, "being compounded" is the proof there is no such thing as "inherent existence."
As you have defined it "paradox" is a category. It's an abstract concept, a label. Someone invented it. Therefore it's impermanent, compounded, etc. No category has inherent existence. Can you show that it does?
I'll come back to the rest of your post today when/if I'm feeling better, because you have raised some interesting questions. One of them: what is mind?
Re: Four Dharma Seals
Oh I know: you like this one
I'm supposed to focus on more worldly things for the rest of today.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
Re: Four Dharma Seals
One should study and try to understand Madhyamaka before getting into such intellectual exercises. An understanding of the basics is completely missing here, as far as I can tell through my limited exposure.weitsicht wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:40 amYes. And still, it does not reflect the ultimate view in which time happens instantaneous.
The physicist says Time is relative and in negative matter time can flow backwards.
How or whether this goes together? I don't know...
Same here, the mind creates this compounded view.
No probably not, where do you have that from?
But maybe time only exists in samsara.
Does time need a mind to being experienced? Would time exist without matter?
For the former the physicist says "not my job to consider". For the latter he says "I can't say, you cannot measure before big bang"
After some further reading http://www.buddhanet.net/timeimpe.htm I come to the following intermediary conclusion:
What the physicist calls asymmetry is where samsara and time happen.
Maybe in nirvana, time is absent, hence not part of that list?
Of course the paradox's example is compounded. However, that doesn't make the bare gedankenexperiment compounded.
Paradox is an abstract term as much as sky is.
But Paradox is also different from gravitation (that functions only in the presence of two masses) or light (which is compound by photons).
Quantum computers operate on the basis of a paradox. Like Schrödinger's cat. Something is going on in the box. You don't know what but you can be sure that it does. Somehow the operability of quantum computers is based on trust.
Key question is: can a paradox exist without the mind / the one who considers it?
I guess so, still need to think this one.
Maybe "being compounded" and "inherent existence" are synonymous? Does paradox have an inherent existence?
Re: Four Dharma Seals
The truth is that I don't particularly like the term "mind." The reason why is that (in English at least) it carries too many meanings, so it makes conversation difficult.
Luckily in Buddha Dharma we have several distinct concepts that are occasionally translated by the English term mind. Therefore, if you want to introduce "mind" to a discussion, it's helpful to everyone if you specify which concept you mean. Citta is not the same as Alaya, for example.
That's why I asked you about it when you brought it up the first time, and marked it again when you brought it up the second time.
It's OK to come back to it later. With that said, getting a good handle on what "mind" means is a very practical and helpful thing to do because it makes a difference when it's time for practice... in my opinion.I'm supposed to focus on more worldly things for the rest of today.
Re: Four Dharma Seals
There's the ultimate view, and the provisional view. The provisional view belongs to sentient beings. The ultimate view belongs to Buddhas. Ultimately (as we are taught by Buddhas), nothing has existed and nothing has ever happened. In the ultimate view, there is no time.
But you asked about time. Therefore, you asked about the provisional view, the view of sentient beings, which is the same as the experience of samsara.
I think if you want to understand time, it makes sense to listen to teachings on dependent origination (Pratītyasamutpāda) and karma.
Re: Four Dharma Seals
No, three things are uncompounded. Or do you abnegate that?
So I understand you say "absence of inherent existence" always means "being compounded"? But then "presence of inherent existence" always means "being uncompounded"?
yes, it's an abstract concept
it's a label to the extent that otherwise I couldn't express it to you
Are you sure the paradox needs invention to exist?
So no, it is not automatically compounded.
"No category has inherent existence. " - You say this so matter-of-factly. Do you quote from somewhere?
By that you mean "a category always is compounded and without inherent existence" -right?
You know, I haven't spooned wisdom (you can say that in German, I am totally aware that in English that doesn't make sense) but logic isn't consistent for me here.
And no, I have no idea how uncompoundedness could be proven by logic.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
Re: Four Dharma Seals
That makes the time issue clear then.DGA wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:31 pmThere's the ultimate view, and the provisional view. The provisional view belongs to sentient beings. The ultimate view belongs to Buddhas. Ultimately (as we are taught by Buddhas), nothing has existed and nothing has ever happened. In the ultimate view, there is no time.
But you asked about time. Therefore, you asked about the provisional view, the view of sentient beings, which is the same as the experience of samsara.
I think if you want to understand time, it makes sense to listen to teachings on dependent origination (Pratītyasamutpāda) and karma.
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE
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Re: Four Dharma Seals
You should read Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (with a good commentary--a comprehensive commentary is absolutely necessary to understand it in its format). All of the questions you are bringing up right now are dealt with inside it. For example, you don't seem to understand the idea of inherent existence as it is dealt with in Madhyamaka, nor compounded vs. uncompounded and how they relate to inherent existence. All of these questions and more can be answered by studying the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā with a good commentary and perhaps some clarification from a teacher.weitsicht wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:34 pmNo, three things are uncompounded. Or do you abnegate that?
So I understand you say "absence of inherent existence" always means "being compounded"? But then "presence of inherent existence" always means "being uncompounded"?
yes, it's an abstract concept
it's a label to the extent that otherwise I couldn't express it to you
Are you sure the paradox needs invention to exist?
So no, it is not automatically compounded.
"No category has inherent existence. " - You say this so matter-of-factly. Do you quote from somewhere?
By that you mean "a category always is compounded and without inherent existence" -right?
You know, I haven't spooned wisdom (you can say that in German, I am totally aware that in English that doesn't make sense) but logic isn't consistent for me here.
And no, I have no idea how uncompoundedness could be proven by logic.
Re: Four Dharma Seals
Yes, a category is always compounded, and for this reason, we know it has no inherent existence. I'd respond to the rest but there's a bigger point that is more important, and I'm dealing with a case of the Schupfen. I want to go to bed.SonamTashi wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:56 pmYou should read Nagarjuna's Mūlamadhyamakakārikā (with a good commentary--a comprehensive commentary is absolutely necessary to understand it in its format). All of the questions you are bringing up right now are dealt with inside it. For example, you don't seem to understand the idea of inherent existence as it is dealt with in Madhyamaka, nor compounded vs. uncompounded and how they relate to inherent existence. All of these questions and more can be answered by studying the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā with a good commentary and perhaps some clarification from a teacher.weitsicht wrote: ↑Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:34 pmNo, three things are uncompounded. Or do you abnegate that?
So I understand you say "absence of inherent existence" always means "being compounded"? But then "presence of inherent existence" always means "being uncompounded"?
yes, it's an abstract concept
it's a label to the extent that otherwise I couldn't express it to you
Are you sure the paradox needs invention to exist?
So no, it is not automatically compounded.
"No category has inherent existence. " - You say this so matter-of-factly. Do you quote from somewhere?
By that you mean "a category always is compounded and without inherent existence" -right?
You know, I haven't spooned wisdom (you can say that in German, I am totally aware that in English that doesn't make sense) but logic isn't consistent for me here.
And no, I have no idea how uncompoundedness could be proven by logic.
I think Sonam Tashi is correct, and the approach he or she describes is a good one (sorry I don't know which pronoun to use for you): Study Madhyamaka.
There is an easier and more efficient way, however: Find yourself a competent teacher of Vajrayana, and listen to the teachings that your teacher gives you. After listening, contemplate them with care. Then, practice. Keep going like that. This tradition begins and ends with the teacher. In real life.
The hardest possible way is to try to think things through over and over on your own. This is a recipe for struggle. Very intelligent people can bind themselves up in this way. Remember how Goethe melted down when it was demonstrated to him that white light isn't some pure spiritual substance, but is compounded of several colors of light? He then tried to reinvent the rules of science in order to prove his own Romantic ideas true, instead of showing some humility about it. That's ego for you.
"metaphysical subtleties and theological niceties" is a good description for the way ego affliction works now. I wish I could remember it auf Deutsch. Anyway Romantic ideas come to Dharma to die and be self-liberated in the emptiness they always were.
Rudolf Steiner was full of shit, too.