Four Dharma Seals

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:14 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:06 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:34 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:00 pm


Neither did I until I looked it up in the bKa' 'gyur and bstan 'gyur last night. There are all kinds of received ideas we do not question.
The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism lists 三印 ("the three seals") as a translation of tridṛṣṭinamittamudrā specifically in the case of T 262.9.15b7 (妙法蓮華經, Ven Kumārajīva translation). Very interesting.
Sounds like a reconstruction to me.
Most certainly could be. I am out of my depth in most of the things I am interested in. Nonetheless, I found it interesting.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Malcolm
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:48 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:06 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 7:34 pm


The Digital Dictionary of Buddhism lists 三印 ("the three seals") as a translation of tridṛṣṭinamittamudrā specifically in the case of T 262.9.15b7 (妙法蓮華經, Ven Kumārajīva translation). Very interesting.
Sounds like a reconstruction to me.
Most certainly could be. I am out of my depth in most of the things I am interested in. Nonetheless, I found it interesting.

FYI, it would be helpful to include a Sanskrit title, like Saddharmapundarika-- assuming I am correct, this phrase is missing from the Tibetan text.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Coëmgenu » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:48 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:14 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:06 pm


Sounds like a reconstruction to me.
Most certainly could be. I am out of my depth in most of the things I am interested in. Nonetheless, I found it interesting.

FYI, it would be helpful to include a Sanskrit title, like Saddharmapundarika-- assuming I am correct, this phrase is missing from the Tibetan text.

M
Apologies, I figured the Taishō number was the most straightforward way.
子念昔貧,志意下劣,今於父所,大獲珍寶,并及舍宅、一切財物。甚大歡喜,得未曾有。
The son thought of past poverty, outlook humble, now having from father a treasure harvest, also father's house, all his wealth. Great joy - to have what was never before had.

Τῆς πατρῴας, δόξης σου, ἀποσκιρτήσας ἀφρόνως, ἐν κακοῖς ἐσκόρπισα, ὅν μοι παρέδωκας πλοῦτον· ὅθεν σοι τὴν τοῦ Ἀσώτου, φωνὴν κραυγάζω· Ἥμαρτον ἐνώπιόν σου Πάτερ οἰκτίρμον, δέξαι με μετανοοῦντα, καὶ ποίησόν με, ὡς ἕνα τῶν μισθίων σου.
Your fatherly due I withheld unthinking, in evil I wasted your wealth; a prodigal cries, "I've erred, father, receive the repentant as serf."

妙法蓮華經 Κοντάκιον τοῦ Ἀσώτου

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Malcolm
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Malcolm » Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:53 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 10:25 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 9:48 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 8:14 pm


Most certainly could be. I am out of my depth in most of the things I am interested in. Nonetheless, I found it interesting.

FYI, it would be helpful to include a Sanskrit title, like Saddharmapundarika-- assuming I am correct, this phrase is missing from the Tibetan text.

M
Apologies, I figured the Taishō number was the most straightforward way.
No worries, but it is an unattested reasding, i.e., pretty basless, Can you tell me exactly what chapter this comes from?

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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SunWuKong
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Jan 26, 2018 11:48 am

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:05 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:36 pm
No no no
Annica/Anitya
anatta/Anatman
dukkha/duhkha
Nibbana/nirvana

Emotion has nothing to do with it. All phenomena ultimately fail. Only in seeing beyond the phenomena can you see beyond its failure.
I am unclear what point you are making..Who or what is this addressed to?
Weitschist
“Nothing holy, just vast empty space!”

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weitsicht
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by weitsicht » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:43 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 2:36 pm
No no no
Annica/Anitya
anatta/Anatman
dukkha/duhkha
Nibbana/nirvana

Emotion has nothing to do with it. All phenomena ultimately fail. Only in seeing beyond the phenomena can you see beyond its failure.
What do you mean by "it"?

I don't quite see (1) and (2) reflected in your list or do you refer to a different list?
If so, why five?

I have a particular problem with the statement that "All phenomena ultimately fail."
How about
- space
- matter
- paradoxy
?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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weitsicht
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by weitsicht » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:48 pm

Sorry to bore those deeper acquainted to the dharma, my question is seriously posted:

What is it that is uncompoud?

I remember from a teaching, but cannot cite and may be wrong, there are three only:
(1) Nirvana
(2) Entrance into nirvana and
(3) mind


Could you please confirm or correct?

If so, why for example paradoxy is compound?

Thanks
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:08 pm

We are tainted by a false doctrine of cosmic consciousness and cosmic evolution, neither of which are supported by Buddhist teaching. Things are what they are. None of that is going to help us. All we can cling to is Emptiness
“Nothing holy, just vast empty space!”

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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:15 pm

Aye.

Although I wouldn't use the word cling..but I know what you mean.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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Malcolm
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:42 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:08 pm
We are tainted by a false doctrine of cosmic consciousness and cosmic evolution...
We are?
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

Simon E.
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Simon E. » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:03 pm

Some are Malcolm. Even this forum is not free from perennialist/universalists who think that all paths lead to the same goal and that it just takes time.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

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weitsicht
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by weitsicht » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:18 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:08 pm
We are tainted by a false doctrine of cosmic consciousness and cosmic evolution, neither of which are supported by Buddhist teaching. Things are what they are. None of that is going to help us. All we can cling to is Emptiness
At least I am not alone in here.
Tainted Love :heart:

Are you a nihilist, SunWuKong?
Ho! All the possible appearances and existences of samsara and nirvana have the same source, yet two paths and two results arise as the magical display of awareness and unawareness.
HO NANG SRI KHOR DAE THAMCHE KUN ZHI CHIG LAM NYI DRAE BU NYI RIG DANG MA RIG CHOM THRUL TE

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Malcolm
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:51 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:03 pm
Some are Malcolm. Even this forum is not free from perennialist/universalists who think that all paths lead to the same goal and that it just takes time.
The he should have said "some of us."
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jan 26, 2018 3:32 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:08 pm
All we can cling to is Emptiness
Good luck with that one!
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:20 pm

weitsicht wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:18 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:08 pm
We are tainted by a false doctrine of cosmic consciousness and cosmic evolution, neither of which are supported by Buddhist teaching. Things are what they are. None of that is going to help us. All we can cling to is Emptiness
At least I am not alone in here.
Tainted Love :heart:

Are you a nihilist, SunWuKong?
Nope. I’m simply a minimalist who believes the Dharma is made for everyone. So back to Cosmic Consciousness, Cosmic Evolution, Rational Secular Buddhism, all ideas cooked up in the West and exported to the East under the guise of “westerners will believe if you tell them this” it’s solid history I can back this up. My favorite strategy here is pointing out that Darwin never suggested evolution, he suggested natural selection, and our view of earth history is being confirmed as based on catastrophe. Not evolution. Even today people operate under the idea that planting eastern practices in the West is going to usher in some kind of Age of Enlightenment, why then wasn’t this occurring in The east when thd percentages of Buddhism was much higher? Because it’s a racial historical revision.
“Nothing holy, just vast empty space!”

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Malcolm
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 26, 2018 6:06 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:20 pm
weitsicht wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 2:18 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 1:08 pm
We are tainted by a false doctrine of cosmic consciousness and cosmic evolution, neither of which are supported by Buddhist teaching. Things are what they are. None of that is going to help us. All we can cling to is Emptiness
At least I am not alone in here.
Tainted Love :heart:

Are you a nihilist, SunWuKong?
My favorite strategy here is pointing out that Darwin never suggested evolution, he suggested natural selection, and our view of earth history is being confirmed as based on catastrophe. Not evolution.
The very last word in Origin of the Species is...wait for it..."evolved."

"From so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved."
-- Origin of the Species, Darwin
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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SunWuKong
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by SunWuKong » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:06 pm

Okay I lost that one. I’m :oops:
“Nothing holy, just vast empty space!”

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Malcolm
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by Malcolm » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:12 pm

SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:06 pm
Okay I lost that one. I’m :oops:
Not, really, Darwin did resist use of the term precisely because it implied "improvement," rather than simple adaptation.

And, as we know, the term has been used by racists, and so on, to imply some human beings are inferior to others.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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SunWuKong
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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by SunWuKong » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:15 am

weitsicht wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:43 pm


I have a particular problem with the statement that "All phenomena ultimately fail."
How about
- space
- matter
- paradoxy
?
Phenomena can't liberate. They can only lead so far, after that it's necessary leaping into what's still unknown

But I'm way off topic and out of my sandbox. Sorry for being dorky.
“Nothing holy, just vast empty space!”

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Re: Four Dharma Seals

Post by DGA » Sat Jan 27, 2018 2:17 am

Malcolm wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:12 pm
SunWuKong wrote:
Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:06 pm
Okay I lost that one. I’m :oops:
Not, really, Darwin did resist use of the term precisely because it implied "improvement," rather than simple adaptation.

And, as we know, the term has been used by racists, and so on, to imply some human beings are inferior to others.
when evolution in this sense (not Darwin's sense) is taken up by "spirituality" writers, the racism usually comes along for the ride. Case in point: Aurobindo and his followers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sri_Aurobindo

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