New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Refugee
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Refugee » Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:01 pm

I still question that. A lesson in impermanence & the problems of samsara can go a long way. He told my lama he will not Yangsi so we have Dewachen Buddha to look forward to. May his activities reach countless beings 🙏

Arnoud
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Arnoud » Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:32 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:53 pm
Refugee wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:06 pm
I wouldn't be so quick to judge a masters passing as in auspicious. What do we know?
It is not inauspicious for him, it is inauspicious for us.
Unless he is not as realized as we think he is and his position was too high for his realization? I am sure there is a lot of karmic weight on the lineage heads' shoulders. Weight that beings such as HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche could easily bear but not everyone is like him.

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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Miroku » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:09 pm

Arnoud wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:53 pm
Refugee wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:06 pm
I wouldn't be so quick to judge a masters passing as in auspicious. What do we know?
It is not inauspicious for him, it is inauspicious for us.
Unless he is not as realized as we think he is and his position was too high for his realization? I am sure there is a lot of karmic weight on the lineage heads' shoulders. Weight that beings such as HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche could easily bear but not everyone is like him.
Why would there be any "karmic weight" on such position? What do you even mean by that?
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Arnoud
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Arnoud » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:29 pm

Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:09 pm
Arnoud wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:32 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 5:53 pm


It is not inauspicious for him, it is inauspicious for us.
Unless he is not as realized as we think he is and his position was too high for his realization? I am sure there is a lot of karmic weight on the lineage heads' shoulders. Weight that beings such as HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche could easily bear but not everyone is like him.
Why would there be any "karmic weight" on such position? What do you even mean by that?
Well, just like when a teacher gives empowerment, if the students are not ready or unsuitable I would consider that a karmic weight. LIkewise, being head of the lineage comes with a lot of responsibilities, not all of which are mundane.

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Miroku
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Miroku » Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:52 pm

Arnoud wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:29 pm
Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:09 pm
Arnoud wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:32 pm


Unless he is not as realized as we think he is and his position was too high for his realization? I am sure there is a lot of karmic weight on the lineage heads' shoulders. Weight that beings such as HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche could easily bear but not everyone is like him.
Why would there be any "karmic weight" on such position? What do you even mean by that?
Well, just like when a teacher gives empowerment, if the students are not ready or unsuitable I would consider that a karmic weight. LIkewise, being head of the lineage comes with a lot of responsibilities, not all of which are mundane.
The first has lots to do with samayas and it is mostly fault of the students if there are breakages and it takes toll on teachers lifespan (unless teacher broke them ofc). I'd say that it is highly irrelevant if he is a head of a lineage or a head cheerleader really.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm » Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:19 pm

Refugee wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:01 pm
I still question that. A lesson in impermanence & the problems of samsara can go a long way. He told my lama he will not Yangsi so we have Dewachen Buddha to look forward to. May his activities reach countless beings 🙏
When given lemons, make lemonade.

Refugee
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Refugee » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:00 am

Malcolm wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 11:19 pm
Refugee wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:01 pm
I still question that. A lesson in impermanence & the problems of samsara can go a long way. He told my lama he will not Yangsi so we have Dewachen Buddha to look forward to. May his activities reach countless beings 🙏
When given lemons, make lemonade.
Well said.

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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Arnoud » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:27 am

Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:52 pm
The first has lots to do with samayas and it is mostly fault of the students if there are breakages and it takes toll on teachers lifespan (unless teacher broke them ofc). I'd say that it is highly irrelevant if he is a head of a lineage or a head cheerleader really.
I don't think lineage head and head cheerleader can really be equated. No offense to cheerleaders.

To hold one lineage is already a great responsibility and comes with a lot of supernatural traps if we believe the hagiographies of old. I can just imagine the same applies to the lineage head. Especially of the Nyingmapas where the protectors and dakinis aren't the most peaceful. That's why I was wondering if there could be a relationship between him being head of the lineage, his realization and his death.
In all honesty, the account of his dead read far from auspicious and not just for us.

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Grigoris
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:48 am

Arnoud wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:27 am
To hold one lineage is already a great responsibility and comes with a lot of supernatural traps if we believe the hagiographies of old. I can just imagine the same applies to the lineage head. Especially of the Nyingmapas where the protectors and dakinis aren't the most peaceful. That's why I was wondering if there could be a relationship between him being head of the lineage, his realization and his death.
In all honesty, the account of his dead read far from auspicious and not just for us.
There is this thing called karma, you know? It does not have anything to do with superstition and paranormal activity and has everything to do with causes and conditions.

Everybody has to die at some point.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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heart
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by heart » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:55 am

Arnoud wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:27 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:52 pm
The first has lots to do with samayas and it is mostly fault of the students if there are breakages and it takes toll on teachers lifespan (unless teacher broke them ofc). I'd say that it is highly irrelevant if he is a head of a lineage or a head cheerleader really.
I don't think lineage head and head cheerleader can really be equated. No offense to cheerleaders.

To hold one lineage is already a great responsibility and comes with a lot of supernatural traps if we believe the hagiographies of old. I can just imagine the same applies to the lineage head. Especially of the Nyingmapas where the protectors and dakinis aren't the most peaceful. That's why I was wondering if there could be a relationship between him being head of the lineage, his realization and his death.
In all honesty, the account of his dead read far from auspicious and not just for us.
He had an accident and fell, I can't see why this bothers you?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Arnoud » Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:44 pm

heart wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:55 am
Arnoud wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:27 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:52 pm
The first has lots to do with samayas and it is mostly fault of the students if there are breakages and it takes toll on teachers lifespan (unless teacher broke them ofc). I'd say that it is highly irrelevant if he is a head of a lineage or a head cheerleader really.
I don't think lineage head and head cheerleader can really be equated. No offense to cheerleaders.

To hold one lineage is already a great responsibility and comes with a lot of supernatural traps if we believe the hagiographies of old. I can just imagine the same applies to the lineage head. Especially of the Nyingmapas where the protectors and dakinis aren't the most peaceful. That's why I was wondering if there could be a relationship between him being head of the lineage, his realization and his death.
In all honesty, the account of his dead read far from auspicious and not just for us.
He had an accident and fell, I can't see why this bothers you?

/magnus
Because I practice in this tradition. Because his death was inauspicious.

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heart
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by heart » Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:58 pm

Arnoud wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:44 pm
heart wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:55 am
Arnoud wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:27 am


I don't think lineage head and head cheerleader can really be equated. No offense to cheerleaders.

To hold one lineage is already a great responsibility and comes with a lot of supernatural traps if we believe the hagiographies of old. I can just imagine the same applies to the lineage head. Especially of the Nyingmapas where the protectors and dakinis aren't the most peaceful. That's why I was wondering if there could be a relationship between him being head of the lineage, his realization and his death.
In all honesty, the account of his dead read far from auspicious and not just for us.
He had an accident and fell, I can't see why this bothers you?

/magnus
Because I practice in this tradition. Because his death was inauspicious.
I had a number of teachers dying for me. It is always unfortunate however their blessing don't disappear and whatever you got you can use. Of course if you are running a monastery then it is an other kind of problem.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:37 pm

Arnoud wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 12:27 am
Miroku wrote:
Mon Dec 03, 2018 9:52 pm
The first has lots to do with samayas and it is mostly fault of the students if there are breakages and it takes toll on teachers lifespan (unless teacher broke them ofc). I'd say that it is highly irrelevant if he is a head of a lineage or a head cheerleader really.
I don't think lineage head and head cheerleader can really be equated. No offense to cheerleaders.

To hold one lineage is already a great responsibility and comes with a lot of supernatural traps if we believe the hagiographies of old. I can just imagine the same applies to the lineage head. Especially of the Nyingmapas where the protectors and dakinis aren't the most peaceful. That's why I was wondering if there could be a relationship between him being head of the lineage, his realization and his death.
In all honesty, the account of his dead read far from auspicious and not just for us.
This happened because of our collective lack of merit. He was not especially old, unlike HH Dudjom Rinpoche, HH Dilgo Khyentse, HH Penor Rinpoche, and HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.

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Grigoris
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:18 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:37 pm
This happened because of our collective lack of merit. He was not especially old, unlike HH Dudjom Rinpoche, HH Dilgo Khyentse, HH Penor Rinpoche, and HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.
I think you will find that it may have something to do with his store of merit.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

Malcolm
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:55 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:18 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 3:37 pm
This happened because of our collective lack of merit. He was not especially old, unlike HH Dudjom Rinpoche, HH Dilgo Khyentse, HH Penor Rinpoche, and HH Taklung Tsetrul Rinpoche.
I think you will find that it may have something to do with his store of merit.
No, I don't think so. But you can think what you like.

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Grigoris
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:05 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:55 pm
No, I don't think so. But you can think what you like.
Well, the Buddha's teachings on life spans and what influences them is pretty clear AND it pretty funny to hear you (somebody so opposed to the notion of collective karma) to be arguing about the influence of collective merit. But I do believe this is fodder for another thread as this is a thread that initially was started to rejoice the "coronation" of the new head of the Nyingma and sadly has now become an obituary thread for the same person.

OM AMI DEWA HRIH

May Kathok Getse Rinpoche attain a direct rebirth to Dewachen and swiftly achieve Buddhahood in order to return and liberate us ignorant sentient beings.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:46 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:05 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:55 pm
No, I don't think so. But you can think what you like.
Well, the Buddha's teachings on life spans and what influences them is pretty clear AND it pretty funny to hear you (somebody so opposed to the notion of collective karma) to be arguing about the influence of collective merit.
The reason I say this is because, in my opinion, he was clearly a realized person, and should he have seen it was beneficial to remain for sentient beings, he would have remained. It is quite clear he knew prior to his passing that he was going to pass soon.

With respect to collective karma and merit, there is no such a thing in a real sense; but we can call the aggregate of individual actions and their ripening "collective" if the causes and results are sufficiently similar.

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Grigoris
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Grigoris » Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:50 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:46 pm
The reason I say this is because, in my opinion, he was clearly a realized person,
I never doubted this. But he might be trying to teach us some other lesson than "you guys aren't good enough for the likes of me". ;)
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

krodha
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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by krodha » Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:39 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:46 pm
It is quite clear he knew prior to his passing that he was going to pass soon.
What indication did he give?

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Re: New Head of Nyingma: Kathok Getse Rinpoche

Post by Malcolm » Tue Dec 04, 2018 10:05 pm

krodha wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:39 pm
Malcolm wrote:
Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:46 pm
It is quite clear he knew prior to his passing that he was going to pass soon.
What indication did he give?
Please read the letter translated by Sangye.

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