Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

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liuzg150181
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by liuzg150181 » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:44 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:38 pm
liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:32 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:18 pm


There is a reason why impermanence is the most important thing to meditate on. No one knows if you will still be interested in a few years, if the circumstances will allow you to study and practice in a few years, or if you will be alive at all. Even if so, several years of your already very limited life will have passed.

Also, no one mentioned making any irreversible decision.
I actually agree with marting,for most teens who dont enter in monastic system at early age, they won't fully appreciate the Dharma's teaching of the defects of samsara(unless they have gone through life-changing events,such as death of parents). Let them have a taste to samsaric activities so they would be more mature to understand dharma more.
Moreover,forcing Dharma teaching on them would cause dharma fatigue imo,not to mention dharma might become a form of escapism for their immature mind,
The OP is obviously interested and already studying and practicing, so it is not a question of forcing him. And in any case he will be getting a taste of samsaric activities. That does not mean he should stop having any interest and postpone it for later.
My bad wordings,what I meant is that I think it is ok for him to enjoy his youth(chasing skirts,studying hard to college, career path etc) while studying and practising dharma,without overt sacrifice the former for the latter(or as a young Sakya Rinpoche whom I had received teaching from had phrased it:softcore pracitioner(not verbatim,but something similar))

marting
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by marting » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:44 pm

liuzg150181 wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:32 pm
I actually agree with marting,for most teens who dont enter in monastic system at early age, they won't fully appreciate the Dharma's teaching of the defects of samsara(unless they have gone through life-changing events,such as death of parents). Let them have a taste to samsaric activities so they would be more mature to understand dharma more.
Moreover,forcing Dharma teaching on them would cause dharma fatigue imo,not to mention dharma might become a form of escapism for their immature mind,
Good point on the monastic system. Dharma for teens under the guidance of a personal Lama within a monastic setting (especially within his or her cultural/linguistic heritage) is a different story than for teens (especially outside the linguistic/cultural heritage) surfing the web. But even then, there are sometimes problems with lack of education/real world skills, sexual misconduct, etc., for the former.

You don't really start to grasp essential building blocks for Dharma like inferences, metaphor, and consequences until adulthood either way.

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Aryjna
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:49 pm

marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:33 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:18 pm
marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:05 pm


OK, thank you. :anjali:

Considering adults have more developed decision making skills, more life experiences, autonomy, education, emotional maturity, yeah...wait till you're older to make serious, lasting decisions about religion.
There is a reason why impermanence is the most important thing to meditate on. No one knows if you will still be interested in a few years, if the circumstances will allow you to study and practice in a few years, or if you will be alive at all. Even if so, several years of your already very limited life will have passed.

Also, no one mentioned making any irreversible decision.
Precisely why better to wait. Adults will understand why they are pursuing the Dharma and the seriousness of the matter easier, and especially the commitment required for study and practice will be put into better context having had life experience and using an adult brain.
You are saying that future circumstances may be better when he is an adult, so he should wait. But when he is an adult it may be even better to wait until he is retired, so he is both an adult and have a lot of free time. This reasoning is many times mentioned as being wrong, and it is the way most people do not practice at all during a whole lifetime, even though they have some interest.

Even if it is easier to be a better practitioner when you are an adult, why not start now? That way you will be even better later.

marting
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by marting » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:52 pm

No, Aryjna. I'm saying he should wait until he develops an adult brain.

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Aryjna
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm

marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:52 pm
No, Aryjna. I'm saying he should wait until he develops an adult brain.
Yes, and I am saying that what you are saying is one of the worst things one can do.

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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Grigoris » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:05 pm

marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:52 pm
No, Aryjna. I'm saying he should wait until he develops an adult brain.
No. He shouldn't. It'll be too late. I wish I started at his age. I would have developed a completely different brain to the one I had now. Not that I regret the university study, sex, drugs and rock'n'roll, but... But I do get what you are saying. At that age one definitely needs some seriously good guidance.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by marting » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:06 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm
Yes, and I am saying that what you are saying is one of the worst things one can do.
If we get our heads out of our religious rear ends for a moment, it's actually a great service to someone to tell them to wait and think carefully about a major decision.

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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by marting » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:08 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:05 pm
I wish I started at his age.
Same, but in a monastic setting under guidance. Not like this.

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Aryjna
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Aryjna » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:17 pm

marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:06 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm
Yes, and I am saying that what you are saying is one of the worst things one can do.
If we get our heads out of our religious rear ends for a moment, it's actually a great service to someone to tell them to wait and think carefully about a major decision.
Even accepting that what you say is true (that an adult brain is better for taking this seriously, which is really not the case for everyone), what is the harm in starting now? There is no major decision. He will just be spending some time each week, or each day studying, and he may also be practicing when he has time and/or during daily life. That does not stop you going to a university or doing anything else.

A major decision for which one should probably wait would be being ordained in a society/tradition where that is an irreversible decision. Or taking lifelong vows.

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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Cianan » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:33 pm

marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:06 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:04 pm
Yes, and I am saying that what you are saying is one of the worst things one can do.
If we get our heads out of our religious rear ends for a moment, it's actually a great service to someone to tell them to wait and think carefully about a major decision.
Any draw towards dharma, the teachings of what is truly meaningful and of lasting value, is on the basis of karma accumulated throughout innumerable lives. You need to look at the bigger picture, i.e. having wandered aimlessly since beginningless time. I'm inclined to agree with the great masters that dharma and the incredibly fortunate circumstances allowing for its practice are not something to take lightly or a matter to save for later. I'd hardly call taking up practice a rash decision.

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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by marting » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:51 pm

Also important to look at behavior rather than having us sit here trying to come up with the best arguments. Some of the posters here under 18 show difficulties with puberty, literalism, etc. Current Jamgon Kongtrul Rinpoche and Kalu Rinpoche have had difficulties in the monastic settings. Some of the biographies of Lamas that have done this since early childhood talk about running away from monasteries and getting into trouble.

Psychology reveals a lot about the functioning of adolescent vs adult brains. Making serious commitments and evaluating consequences are lacking in adolescence. The idea of starting Dharma early and progressing smoothly especially in this day and age and outside monastic settings is mostly an idealistic myth. Much, much better to wait to make mature decisions about religion. Adolescence is better spent developing a foundation for learning and complex reasoning, life skills, consequences of one's actions, and people skills, to name a few.

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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by marting » Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:53 pm

Cianan wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:33 pm
I'm inclined to agree with the great masters that dharma and the incredibly fortunate circumstances allowing for its practice are not something to take lightly or a matter to save for later.
Difficult to make that decision in adolescence, Cianan. It really is.

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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Pero » Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:13 pm

I started following Tibetan Buddhist teachings when I was 19 (damn how time flies). Part of me wishes I had started sooner. But it's possible that if I had, I would not have stuck with it. That said, I don't see a problem with starting at whatever young age while still doing whatever the young do these days. Basically just don't turn into some kind of extremist at such an age.
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

MatthewAngby
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by MatthewAngby » Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:07 am

marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:33 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:18 pm
marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:05 pm


OK, thank you. :anjali:

Considering adults have more developed decision making skills, more life experiences, autonomy, education, emotional maturity, yeah...wait till you're older to make serious, lasting decisions about religion.
There is a reason why impermanence is the most important thing to meditate on. No one knows if you will still be interested in a few years, if the circumstances will allow you to study and practice in a few years, or if you will be alive at all. Even if so, several years of your already very limited life will have passed.

Also, no one mentioned making any irreversible decision.
Precisely why better to wait. Adults will understand why they are pursuing the Dharma and the seriousness of the matter easier, and especially the commitment required for study and practice will be put into better context having had life experience and using an adult brain.
No, I have had experiences condsidering dharma practices already. I do not believe in a creator god or atheism ( because creator god means no dependent origination, which to me is bs . Atheism to me isn’t true , because I had my fair share of ghostly encounters and my prayers answers in my time of need some time ) so therefore, I will not place my faith in other religions ( I do not deny the existence of the gods in other religions , but I deny their concepts .) So I have decided to take the Buddhist path- my parents did not force me, I have merely taken it upon myself.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

Miroku
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Miroku » Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:25 pm

Jesus, how can you even be suggesting that he should wait? Yes, it might do him good to experience things, but dharma can help him turn those experiences into meaningful experiences. I am glad I started at 17, because otherwise I'd have probably killed myself. Not saying that I am that depressive, but sometimes life gets hard and thanks to practice it gets easier and more managable.

It is possible to be teen buddhist outside of monastery. There is no difference between old and young newcomers. The plan is simple, find a qualified teacher, use your brain, don't do harm and try to develop some compassion.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by PeterC » Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:25 pm

I don’t think we can advise someone to defer studying the dharma when they have genuine interest without endangering our own vows.

However that doesn’t mean that we should advise them to begin immediately with the vajrayana. There are excellent reasons to delay that until the student has met and developed confidence in a qualified guru etc etc and also has the personal maturity to practice strictly according to the guru’s instructions.

Most teenagers would be best served by shamatha and sutras first, blood-drinking four-headed herukas later. Though I can see the futility of trying to persuade them of that.

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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:42 pm

marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:52 pm
No, Aryjna. I'm saying he should wait until he develops an adult brain.
Well, there is nothing wrong with an adolescent flirtation with Dharma. But serious Dharma practice is an adult pursuit, best left until, as you say, one's brain is fully formed, around 26 or so.

M
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Malcolm
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Malcolm » Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:43 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:25 pm
I don’t think we can advise someone to defer studying the dharma when they have genuine interest without endangering our own vows.

However that doesn’t mean that we should advise them to begin immediately with the vajrayana. There are excellent reasons to delay that until the student has met and developed confidence in a qualified guru etc etc and also has the personal maturity to practice strictly according to the guru’s instructions.

Most teenagers would be best served by shamatha and sutras first, blood-drinking four-headed herukas later. Though I can see the futility of trying to persuade them of that.
Ngondro was developed for teens.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

MatthewAngby
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by MatthewAngby » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:09 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:43 pm
PeterC wrote:
Tue Jan 30, 2018 2:25 pm
I don’t think we can advise someone to defer studying the dharma when they have genuine interest without endangering our own vows.

However that doesn’t mean that we should advise them to begin immediately with the vajrayana. There are excellent reasons to delay that until the student has met and developed confidence in a qualified guru etc etc and also has the personal maturity to practice strictly according to the guru’s instructions.

Most teenagers would be best served by shamatha and sutras first, blood-drinking four-headed herukas later. Though I can see the futility of trying to persuade them of that.
Ngondro was developed for teens.
Well yeah, I kinda agree with Malcom. Some people have different interests like me, I am perfectly fine with doing ngondro first- but mind me on the next part , I do not wish to speak bad of the dharma. But sutra for me will be very difficult to do , because I have a phobia of reading books and let me tell you , before I tried TB, I was in Chinese Mahayana tradition. I read sutras and stuff , but that wasn’t for me , because I got very frustrated many times for some reason. So I would say that you see, ngondro would be the best option for me, also four thoughts and lojong. This seems to be pretty good for me.

What I’m saying is , I think we don’t need sutras first ( correct me if I am wrong ), though that is one of the ways I think. There are plenty of ways for me to get started , which many have already introduced to me.
The force is my ally...and a powerful ally it is - Yoda

Simon E.
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Re: Dharani of Glorious Vajra claws / Dorje Dermo

Post by Simon E. » Tue Jan 30, 2018 4:28 pm

marting wrote:
Sun Jan 28, 2018 4:40 pm
At your age, leave Buddhism for later and go out there and have fun! Meet people, go to college, get a job, etc. So much better. :thumbsup:
This.

Forget all this for while.
If your vipaka is ripening in this direction it won't leave you. It will still be there.
The big problem in starting to study dharma at a young age is that it often leads to the adoption of a false persona, usually one borrowed from another culture and another time.
Eventually that false persona becomes yet another layer of delusion to be dropped.
Often a very tenacious one because it feels more real...More 'Buddhist'.
Is it safe to come out now? Looks to the left...Looks to the right.... :thinking:

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