Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

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Pema Rigdzin
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Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:29 pm

It’s said that when wandering through the bardo, people are somewhat clairvoyant with respect to those they knew in the life they just passed away from. That being the case, then I’m wondering if doing Vajrayana practices on their behalf could unintentionally hurtle them into an unfortunate rebirth if they staunchly adhere to another religion and get upset at what we’re doing. Anyone ever received or come across any teachings on this?

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Josef
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by Josef » Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:45 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:29 pm
It’s said that when wandering through the bardo, people are somewhat clairvoyant with respect to those they knew in the life they just passed away from. That being the case, then I’m wondering if doing Vajrayana practices on their behalf could unintentionally hurtle them into an unfortunate rebirth if they staunchly adhere to another religion and get upset at what we’re doing. Anyone ever received or come across any teachings on this?
Not if what you're doing is fully inspired by bodhicitta.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:36 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:45 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:29 pm
It’s said that when wandering through the bardo, people are somewhat clairvoyant with respect to those they knew in the life they just passed away from. That being the case, then I’m wondering if doing Vajrayana practices on their behalf could unintentionally hurtle them into an unfortunate rebirth if they staunchly adhere to another religion and get upset at what we’re doing. Anyone ever received or come across any teachings on this?
Not if what you're doing is fully inspired by bodhicitta.
That is of course the whole point, but what makes you so sure that would be enough to prevent them from becoming freaked out, angry, and/or fearful that they're sinning?

WeiHan
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by WeiHan » Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:54 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:36 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:45 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:29 pm
It’s said that when wandering through the bardo, people are somewhat clairvoyant with respect to those they knew in the life they just passed away from. That being the case, then I’m wondering if doing Vajrayana practices on their behalf could unintentionally hurtle them into an unfortunate rebirth if they staunchly adhere to another religion and get upset at what we’re doing. Anyone ever received or come across any teachings on this?
Not if what you're doing is fully inspired by bodhicitta.
That is of course the whole point, but what makes you so sure that would be enough to prevent them from becoming freaked out, angry, and/or fearful that they're sinning?
The practice is definitely beneficial to them if it is done correctly. mostly likely, they experience it as something pleasant and not what is against their wish. That is what I read from people who claimed to have "third eye" opened and can see what is happening. For example, when you do sur offering, all hungry ghosts will experience seeing food instead of perceiving you doing buddhist mantras and prayers.

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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by javier.espinoza.t » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:03 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:36 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:45 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:29 pm
It’s said that when wandering through the bardo, people are somewhat clairvoyant with respect to those they knew in the life they just passed away from. That being the case, then I’m wondering if doing Vajrayana practices on their behalf could unintentionally hurtle them into an unfortunate rebirth if they staunchly adhere to another religion and get upset at what we’re doing. Anyone ever received or come across any teachings on this?
Not if what you're doing is fully inspired by bodhicitta.
That is of course the whole point, but what makes you so sure that would be enough to prevent them from becoming freaked out, angry, and/or fearful that they're sinning?
if one does it well, there can't be problem. boddhicitta doesn't mean having a nice thought, one must know how to help, how to perform.
what are you doing

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Josef
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by Josef » Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:10 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:36 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:45 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 8:29 pm
It’s said that when wandering through the bardo, people are somewhat clairvoyant with respect to those they knew in the life they just passed away from. That being the case, then I’m wondering if doing Vajrayana practices on their behalf could unintentionally hurtle them into an unfortunate rebirth if they staunchly adhere to another religion and get upset at what we’re doing. Anyone ever received or come across any teachings on this?
Not if what you're doing is fully inspired by bodhicitta.
That is of course the whole point, but what makes you so sure that would be enough to prevent them from becoming freaked out, angry, and/or fearful that they're sinning?
Because there is absolutely no guilt, shame, or judgement in bodhicitta.
Bodhicitta is wisdom or the true nature of reality manifesting in thought, word, and deed.
It is limitless and completely beyond the boundaries of religious dogma and social constructs.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Pema Rigdzin
Posts: 1132
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2009 3:19 am
Location: Southern Oregon

Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:53 am

Josef wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:10 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:36 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Jul 31, 2018 10:45 pm


Not if what you're doing is fully inspired by bodhicitta.
That is of course the whole point, but what makes you so sure that would be enough to prevent them from becoming freaked out, angry, and/or fearful that they're sinning?
Because there is absolutely no guilt, shame, or judgement in bodhicitta.
Bodhicitta is wisdom or the true nature of reality manifesting in thought, word, and deed.
It is limitless and completely beyond the boundaries of religious dogma and social constructs.
I'm quite aware of the nature and qualities of bodhichitta, and I’m quite open to prayers on my behalf by non-Buddhists who I know to be well-intentioned, loving, and just doing what they know and how they know to do it. I won’t belief in their refuge’s ability to perform whatver’s been prayed for, but I will appreciate the praying person’s efforts and intentions. But everyone isn’t so open and able to see it like that. If the recipient of my prayers can’t perceive the qualities of bodhichitta and instead has an experience that’s more like, “Ugh, don’t you pray to your heathen gods for me! Pray to Jesus!” That’s what I’m taking about.

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Josef
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by Josef » Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:56 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:53 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:10 am
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:36 am


That is of course the whole point, but what makes you so sure that would be enough to prevent them from becoming freaked out, angry, and/or fearful that they're sinning?
Because there is absolutely no guilt, shame, or judgement in bodhicitta.
Bodhicitta is wisdom or the true nature of reality manifesting in thought, word, and deed.
It is limitless and completely beyond the boundaries of religious dogma and social constructs.
“Ugh, don’t you pray to your heathen gods for me! Pray to Jesus!” That’s what I’m taking about.
I know that's what you're talking about and anyone with real bodhicitta also has the skillful means and wisdom to make sure they arent doing harm.
Bodhicitta is WAY more than compassion.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

Yeti
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by Yeti » Fri Aug 03, 2018 10:06 pm

I asked Ngakpa Karma Lhundup Rinpoche about this, and he said to do Chenrezig practice for the dead. In fact there is a special Chenrezig practice in the Choling Tersar which is for those that have passed.

I have also read somewhere, where, I think it might have been Tulku Urgyen who said, Don't go doing special practices for the dead unless you are accomplished in them. This was in regards to advanced practices.
"When a Dzogchen Yogi hears Shakyamuni Buddha turning the Wheel of the Dharma of the Four Noble Truths he hears Samathabhadra proclaiming the most profound Dzogpachenpo." - Nyoshul Khen Rinpoche

WeiHan
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by WeiHan » Sun Aug 05, 2018 12:31 pm

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:53 am
“Ugh, don’t you pray to your heathen gods for me! Pray to Jesus!” That’s what I’m taking about.
That really voice down to what you believe your prayer can achieve. What you believe in? Whether going to heaven will be good for him in the long term? Here I assume you are refering to a person who has already died and is in his bardo state, not someone who is terminally ill and has not yet died.

Pema Rigdzin
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:21 pm

Josef wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:56 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:53 am
Josef wrote:
Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:10 am


Because there is absolutely no guilt, shame, or judgement in bodhicitta.
Bodhicitta is wisdom or the true nature of reality manifesting in thought, word, and deed.
It is limitless and completely beyond the boundaries of religious dogma and social constructs.
“Ugh, don’t you pray to your heathen gods for me! Pray to Jesus!” That’s what I’m taking about.
I know that's what you're talking about and anyone with real bodhicitta also has the skillful means and wisdom to make sure they arent doing harm.
Bodhicitta is WAY more than compassion.
Again, I am intimately familiar with what bodhichitta is. Truly, bodhichitta is the natural state with all its qualities. The issue isn't what bodhichitta is and can do, but one of receptivity and conditioning on the bardo being's part, ie how fearful and closed off they are to it. Bodhichitta may appear in the aspect of either Samantabhadra or Yama to a bardo being, depending on their obscurations. Buddha Shakyamuni was viewed as an ordinary sentient being riddled with faults by those with obscurations that caused that perception. To put my original question in a concrete context, since I lack the accomplishment of someone like our guru, Norbu Rinpoche, for instance, my habit has been to unify all my gurus in the form of, say, Guru Rinpoche, according to the guru yoga principle, and pray that he appear to the bardo being, bless them and dissolve into them, and help guide them to a fortunate rebirth. I also of course do my normal practice, and then when dedicating the merit, dedicate it in particular to said bardo being(s) for their precious human rebirth and total realization, and in general to all sentient for theirs. But then it occurred to me that if a bardo being is connected closely enough to me to perceive the mental image of Guru Rinpoche in my mind and be put off by it, would that cause problems. Maybe, as you say, they will feel the bodhichitta and that will be powerful enough to overcome their conditioning and penetrate to the core of them. I absolutely hope so.

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Josef
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Re: Doing Vajrayana practices for the dead of other religions

Post by Josef » Mon Aug 06, 2018 12:36 am

Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Sun Aug 05, 2018 8:21 pm
Josef wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 3:56 pm
Pema Rigdzin wrote:
Fri Aug 03, 2018 7:53 am

“Ugh, don’t you pray to your heathen gods for me! Pray to Jesus!” That’s what I’m taking about.
I know that's what you're talking about and anyone with real bodhicitta also has the skillful means and wisdom to make sure they arent doing harm.
Bodhicitta is WAY more than compassion.
Again, I am intimately familiar with what bodhichitta is. Truly, bodhichitta is the natural state with all its qualities. The issue isn't what bodhichitta is and can do, but one of receptivity and conditioning on the bardo being's part, ie how fearful and closed off they are to it. Bodhichitta may appear in the aspect of either Samantabhadra or Yama to a bardo being, depending on their obscurations. Buddha Shakyamuni was viewed as an ordinary sentient being riddled with faults by those with obscurations that caused that perception. To put my original question in a concrete context, since I lack the accomplishment of someone like our guru, Norbu Rinpoche, for instance, my habit has been to unify all my gurus in the form of, say, Guru Rinpoche, according to the guru yoga principle, and pray that he appear to the bardo being, bless them and dissolve into them, and help guide them to a fortunate rebirth. I also of course do my normal practice, and then when dedicating the merit, dedicate it in particular to said bardo being(s) for their precious human rebirth and total realization, and in general to all sentient for theirs. But then it occurred to me that if a bardo being is connected closely enough to me to perceive the mental image of Guru Rinpoche in my mind and be put off by it, would that cause problems. Maybe, as you say, they will feel the bodhichitta and that will be powerful enough to overcome their conditioning and penetrate to the core of them. I absolutely hope so.
By practicing bodhicitta skillfully and according to their needs bardo beings wont be disturbed by your practices.
If we practice for others and actually do so with true bodhicitta they will never even encounter the limitations or hesitations of religious dogmas.
Visualizing buddhas etc. could potentially cause aversion, adopting skill in means and bodhicitta eliminates that issue. Visualizing Guru Rinpoche appearing before your devoted Christian aunt (for example) is a very limited application of bodhicitta. Dedicating all of ones merits to her and visualizing the sambhogakaya appearing as Jesus might be far more skillful.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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