Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

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Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:53 am

So from what I can tell, the well known concise Tersar ngondro is in the same cycle (Dagnang Yeshe Drelwa) as the Tröma practices and teachings, but I’ve also heard of a so-called Tröma ngondro. Are these distinct ngondro’s? If so, does one typically start with the Tröma one from the start of one plans on being a Tröma practitioner?

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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Lingpupa » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:39 am

I'm interested in this question, and if I present my incomplete understanding it is partly in the hope that others will enlighten me too!

I have been taught that the concise (yep, really concise) Tersar Ngondro is entirely consistent with and suitable as a preparation for Tröma practice.

Then there is what is known as the Short Tröma Ngondro, consisting of four lines for refuge, four lines for bodhicitta, , four lines for offering the mandala, eight lines for a seven-fold merit accumulation, and eight lines (two pairs of four, one might say) for Guru Yoga.

As far as I know, while the first one is regularly used for accumulation, the second one is not (I repeat, as far as I know). The sadly late Pema Dorje Rinpoche told me that a chödpa of this tradition would use an arrangement starting with Thröma's Laughter, Invocation to Dudjom Lingpa and then this second one as a preliminary to each of the four feasts, and that the feast (or, for that matter the "Downpour of Merit and Siddhi" would be followed by the Giving the Dharma and dedication finishing with Om Mani Peme Hung Hri.

Confusingly enough, the "Downpour" (only a couple of pages) is sometimes also called the "concise feast", and is not to be confused with the much larger "Concise Sadhana" arranged by Thinley Norbu.

And then, there is a "Tröma Preliminaries" which includes much of the material I just mentioned, but is significantly larger and includes other sections. I don't know how this is used. I think that it, too, may be an arrangement from Thinley Norbu.

I could be wrong about some of this, and my knowledge is certainly incomplete, so I look forward to more replies!

(I suppose I should mention the usual: whether or not you start with a particular practice and how much of it you do is something to sort out with your teacher. But you probably didn't need me to tell you that!)
All the best
Alex Wilding
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am

Ok.. the widely known concise Dudjom tersar ngondro does come
from the Troma cycle of Dudjom Lingpa, however it is usually a very initial ngondro in the Tersar before one does their Three Roots retreats. Three Roots are generally coming from Dudjom Rinpoche’s cycles of Dakini (Yeshe Tsogyal), Guru and Yidam.

If one wanted to dive deeply into Troma practice, the Troma ngondro is also accumulated as part of that path. This has some of the same sections (refuge, bodhicitta, mandala,) as the more concise “Lujin ngondro” that Lingpupa references above, however a unique four thoughts are included in the beginning, an elaborate purification using the Three Mothers in the middle, and an extensive (in length and profundity) Guru Yoga specific to Troma at the end. The majority of sections include the use of the Chod drum, bell and kangling.

The Lujin ngondro, more concise, is used within the context of opening the Lujin (the concise feast) and inserted with the other feasts. Lujin is traditionally what is taught as Chod to beginners. Really the Four Feasts are secret and intended for serious yogis who really do them according to the proper times of day, in retreat. I’m not sure why they have started being used in public group contexts by some these days, however this is unusual and not how the tertons intended it. Normally after Troma ngondro, then one would do a retreat accumulating Troma as yidam using the Medium length Troma Tsok text, and doing that Tsok oneself daily. Only after accomplishing this with proper signs would one then be prepared to go further with the Feasts. Any details of these things, beyond this outline of chronology (which I feel is ok to share as an outline of the path) is considered secret and should only be discussed with ones Guru. Also, on an individual “pith” basis a Guru can change the steps for you, skip something, etc: that’s according to their wisdom, if they’re qualified.

The Lujin ngondro isn’t necessarily accumulated as a ngondro in how I’ve learned these things, however my teacher did tell many of us that the Lujin itself could be accumulated 100,000 times (after opening it each session with the Laughter o D & Lujin ngondro—as Lingpupa described) as an alternative to the 500,000
accumulation of the concise Tersar ngondro. This may indeed take more time than the concise ngondro, however it might be inspiring for those who feel powerfully drawn to Chod. This would precede the “Troma ngondro” in the bigger-picture progression just as the concise ngondro would ordinarily.

I hope this helps to clarify.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Lingpupa » Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:54 am

Adamantine wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am
...
I hope this helps to clarify.
It does. Thanks.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yeshegyaltsen » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:03 pm

I think a little more clarification is needed here. Sorry if I repeat some of what Adamantine said. What lingugpa is referring to as the "Short Throma ngondro" and Adam is referring to as "lujin ngondro", is really just the opening and closing verses used in the four feasts. However, the opening verses up through the seven branches are the same as the actual Throma ngondro, as mentioned in Adam's second paragraph.

Otherwise, much of what Lingugpa is referring to in his post is the arrangement for the daily practice that Thinley Norbu put together. The laughter of the dakini, followed by intro verses up through guru yoga of the "lujin ngondro", then what he calls the "downpour" followed by the closing verses of the "lujin ngondro", plus an optional aspiration. This referred to as the concise chod (gcod bsdus) and it is a daily practice intended for beginners or those incapable of more detailed practice, per Thinley Norbu's title.

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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:28 pm

yeshegyaltsen wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:03 pm
I think a little more clarification is needed here. Sorry if I repeat some of what Adamantine said. What lingugpa is referring to as the "Short Throma ngondro" and Adam is referring to as "lujin ngondro", is really just the opening and closing verses used in the four feasts. However, the opening verses up through the seven branches are the same as the actual Throma ngondro, as mentioned in Adam's second paragraph.

Otherwise, much of what Lingugpa is referring to in his post is the arrangement for the daily practice that Thinley Norbu put together. The laughter of the dakini, followed by intro verses up through guru yoga of the "lujin ngondro", then what he calls the "downpour" followed by the closing verses of the "lujin ngondro", plus an optional aspiration. This referred to as the concise chod (gcod bsdus) and it is a daily practice intended for beginners or those incapable of more detailed practice, per Thinley Norbu's title.
This arrangement: Troma’s Laughter Which Suppresses with Splendor (which also opens the Troma Tsok) then invocation of Dudjom Lingpa, Lujin ngondro, (insert Lujin / concise feast—titled “A Rain of Accumulation of Merit and Spiritual Attainment” according to my translation—here or if you have the capacity, transmissions and the permission then one of the Four Feasts), and the sharing the Dharma, dedications, Mani mantra and final dedication at the close are not a specific structure developed by Thinley Norbu, as far as I know this structure is coming from Dudjom Lingpa himself. If you look into it you’ll find it practiced this way within any Dudjom Troma lineage not only those associated with Thinley Norbu Rinpoche. I’m sure his centers created a nice booklet however.

What is specific to Thinley Norbu Rinpoche is his compilation of the short Troma Tsok (which is just a page and a half long) into a longer fuller practice with many insertions, which lasts for around an hour or so. That’s the Tsok, as opposed to the concise Chod body-offering.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yeshegyaltsen » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:55 pm

Actually I'm referring to this text https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... CW1PD96438. Though if you can find me that arrangement in another Tibetan publication I'd be happy to take a look. Otherwise, what your'e translating as “A Rain of Accumulation of Merit and Spiritual Attainment” is the gcod bsdus.

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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine » Thu Jan 31, 2019 9:33 pm

yeshegyaltsen wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:55 pm
Actually I'm referring to this text https://www.tbrc.org/#library_work_View ... CW1PD96438. Though if you can find me that arrangement in another Tibetan publication I'd be happy to take a look. Otherwise, what your'e translating as “A Rain of Accumulation of Merit and Spiritual Attainment” is the gcod bsdus.
I’m not a translator, I meant as in the translation I use. This is as provided by the late Dungse Shenphen Dawa Norbu Rinpoche at his centers. See here: http://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?titl ... eshe_Drawa
155FF9BD-CA0D-44DA-8079-9AB134E2F093.jpeg
155FF9BD-CA0D-44DA-8079-9AB134E2F093.jpeg (137.5 KiB) Viewed 826 times
Looking at your link the order of the Tibetan characters from my text don’t even appear within your longer title. Is that simply the name of a compilation which published these shorter texts as one? Usually they are treated as separate texts and strung together in the customary order. This is the Tibetan habit, to skip forward and back and insert things and it can be tedious. So I’m wondering if TNR just published them together in the customary practice-order and then gave it his own title?
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:27 am

Adamantine wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am
Really the Four Feasts are secret and intended for serious yogis who really do them according to the proper times of day, in retreat. I’m not sure why they have started being used in public group contexts by some these days, however this is unusual and not how the tertons intended it.
I seem to recall Sangye Khandro saying that Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje said this is ok.

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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine » Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:59 am

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:27 am
Adamantine wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am
Really the Four Feasts are secret and intended for serious yogis who really do them according to the proper times of day, in retreat. I’m not sure why they have started being used in public group contexts by some these days, however this is unusual and not how the tertons intended it.
I seem to recall Sangye Khandro saying that Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje said this is ok.
Well it certainly wasn’t considered OK by Dungse Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche who was enthroned as head of the Tersar by his father Dudjom Rinpoche himself. So I’m not sure how Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje would have the authority to change the secrecy standards set by the tertons themselves. If either of the Dudjom Yangsi Rinpoches decide this is an important shift, I’d listen to them however.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:15 am

Adamantine wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:59 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:27 am
Adamantine wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 11:11 am
Really the Four Feasts are secret and intended for serious yogis who really do them according to the proper times of day, in retreat. I’m not sure why they have started being used in public group contexts by some these days, however this is unusual and not how the tertons intended it.
I seem to recall Sangye Khandro saying that Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje said this is ok.
Well it certainly wasn’t considered OK by Dungse Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche who was enthroned as head of the Tersar by his father Dudjom Rinpoche himself. So I’m not sure how Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje would have the authority to change the secrecy standards set by the tertons themselves. If either of the Dudjom Yangsi Rinpoches decide this is an important shift, I’d listen to them however.
That's fair. I suspect that this might spread further and further. I'm not 100% if it came from Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje, but this is certainly how Sangye Khandro teaches it. And Sangye Khandro is one of the foremost teachers of this lineage in the United States. Not saying that makes it ok, but I think this is the reason it might be becoming popular.

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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine » Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:48 am

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:15 am
Adamantine wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:59 am
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 12:27 am


I seem to recall Sangye Khandro saying that Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje said this is ok.
Well it certainly wasn’t considered OK by Dungse Shenphen Dawa Rinpoche who was enthroned as head of the Tersar by his father Dudjom Rinpoche himself. So I’m not sure how Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje would have the authority to change the secrecy standards set by the tertons themselves. If either of the Dudjom Yangsi Rinpoches decide this is an important shift, I’d listen to them however.
That's fair. I suspect that this might spread further and further. I'm not 100% if it came from Ngakpa Yeshe Dorje, but this is certainly how Sangye Khandro teaches it. And Sangye Khandro is one of the foremost teachers of this lineage in the United States. Not saying that makes it ok, but I think this is the reason it might be becoming popular.
Well, it’s odd. Garab Dorje Rinpoche’s groups seem to do the Feasts all together preceding Troma Tsok these days from what I’ve heard. I’m not sure where or why this began. However, my understanding is you can learn and “practice” together in closed private groups within a sangha that has the permission and ideally transmission. However the melodies are not intended to be heard by the public. Which complicates things further when you find CD’s for sale with a Lama singing them. All I can do is follow how I was taught, which is the orthodox way. It’s difficult
to comment on other people’s teachers or training, when it contradicts that of multiple teachers of my own whom I have extraordinary confidence in. Really the head of the lineage should make these calls.. in this case either of the Yangsi Rinpoche’s views I’d accept as I see them as both having this function. I’ll see if I can find a way to inquire.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:47 am

Adamantine wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:48 am
However, my understanding is you can learn and “practice” together in closed private groups within a sangha that has the permission and ideally transmission. However the melodies are not intended to be heard by the public.
Oh, I must have misunderstood. That is all I really meant was happening. Although I guess there's CDs too...

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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Fri Feb 01, 2019 7:14 am

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 6:47 am
Adamantine wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 5:48 am
However, my understanding is you can learn and “practice” together in closed private groups within a sangha that has the permission and ideally transmission. However the melodies are not intended to be heard by the public.
Oh, I must have misunderstood. That is all I really meant was happening. Although I guess there's CDs too...
One of my (Western) teachers once told me that sometimes lamas make mistakes or remember things incorrectly, but the only option for students is to follow exactly what the lama says. So, sometimes mistakes can get propagated down lineages. I was a bit shocked to hear that.

My (non-western) root teacher says not to follow his instructions if they contradict the tantras.

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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Lingpupa » Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:55 am

At the risk of muddying the waters further through my ignorance:
Adamantine wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:28 pm
This arrangement: Troma’s Laughter Which Suppresses with Splendor (which also opens the Troma Tsok) then invocation of Dudjom Lingpa, Lujin ngondro, (insert Lujin / concise feast—titled “A Rain of Accumulation of Merit and Spiritual Attainment” according to my translation—here or if you have the capacity, transmissions and the permission then one of the Four Feasts), and the sharing the Dharma, dedications, Mani mantra and final dedication at the close are not a specific structure developed by Thinley Norbu, as far as I know this structure is coming from Dudjom Lingpa himself. If you look into it you’ll find it practiced this way within any Dudjom Troma lineage not only those associated with Thinley Norbu Rinpoche. I’m sure his centers created a nice booklet however.
That fits my limited experience - I was taught this arrangement by a teacher whose "line" does not come through Thinley Norbu.
Adamantine wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:28 pm
What is specific to Thinley Norbu Rinpoche is his compilation of the short Troma Tsok (which is just a page and a half long) into a longer fuller practice with many insertions, which lasts for around an hour or so. That’s the Tsok, as opposed to the concise Chod body-offering.
And that compilation would be what may be known as the Concise Sadhana or the Vajra Essence (rdo rje'i snying po), which is the text linked by yeshegyaltsen.

Put otherwise, the Concise Chod, which I described as did Adamantine above, is not the same as the Concise Sadhana, and it includes the Rain/Downpour of of Merit and Siddhi (or Spiritual Attainment).

Are we there yet?
All the best
Alex Wilding
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Lingpupa » Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:39 am

You don't say why you mention this. It is the arrangement I was talking about when I said:
And then, there is a "Tröma Preliminaries" which includes much of the material I just mentioned, but is significantly larger and includes other sections. I don't know how this is used. I think that it, too, may be an arrangement from Thinley Norbu.
As such, though material overlaps, it is neither the Concise Chod, nor the Concise Sadhana. Is there someone here who knows why and when this particular collection (referenced by thogme19) is used?
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine » Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:34 pm

Lingpupa wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 11:39 am
You don't say why you mention this.
I think they were probably just replying to the OP, who asked about it. :P

It is the arrangement I was talking about when I said:
And then, there is a "Tröma Preliminaries" which includes much of the material I just mentioned, but is significantly larger and includes other sections. I don't know how this is used. I think that it, too, may be an arrangement from Thinley Norbu.
As such, though material overlaps, it is neither the Concise Chod, nor the Concise Sadhana. Is there someone here who knows why and when this particular collection (referenced by thogme19) is used?
I thought I’d already answered this above. I guess unsuccessfully.
It’s a ngondro (preliminary) to the larger path of Troma in Dudjom Lingpa’s extensive cycle. This path is totally complete and extends up to togal. This is how so many achieved rainbow body following this exact Troma path of practice. The Troma ngondro is accumulated just like any other ngondro, to prepare for more deeply entering into the path. Most people I know have first accumulated the short tersar ngondro and then continued on to accumulate the Troma ngondro. However this isn’t always the case, as one’s own Guru could tell you to jump right into the Troma ngondro potentially. It’s up to their insight and your karmic proclivity and capacity. After completing the Troma ngondro there is a traditional progression, step by step along this Troma path.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Lingpupa » Fri Feb 01, 2019 2:44 pm

Adamantine wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 1:34 pm
I thought I’d already answered this above. I guess unsuccessfully.
I think you did, but I was confused by the multiple concise things and the multiple preliminaries, so thanks for making it even clearer.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yeshegyaltsen » Fri Feb 01, 2019 3:52 pm

Lingpupa wrote:
Fri Feb 01, 2019 9:55 am
At the risk of muddying the waters further through my ignorance:
Adamantine wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:28 pm
This arrangement: Troma’s Laughter Which Suppresses with Splendor (which also opens the Troma Tsok) then invocation of Dudjom Lingpa, Lujin ngondro, (insert Lujin / concise feast—titled “A Rain of Accumulation of Merit and Spiritual Attainment” according to my translation—here or if you have the capacity, transmissions and the permission then one of the Four Feasts), and the sharing the Dharma, dedications, Mani mantra and final dedication at the close are not a specific structure developed by Thinley Norbu, as far as I know this structure is coming from Dudjom Lingpa himself. If you look into it you’ll find it practiced this way within any Dudjom Troma lineage not only those associated with Thinley Norbu Rinpoche. I’m sure his centers created a nice booklet however.
That fits my limited experience - I was taught this arrangement by a teacher whose "line" does not come through Thinley Norbu.
Adamantine wrote:
Thu Jan 31, 2019 6:28 pm
What is specific to Thinley Norbu Rinpoche is his compilation of the short Troma Tsok (which is just a page and a half long) into a longer fuller practice with many insertions, which lasts for around an hour or so. That’s the Tsok, as opposed to the concise Chod body-offering.
And that compilation would be what may be known as the Concise Sadhana or the Vajra Essence (rdo rje'i snying po), which is the text linked by yeshegyaltsen.

Put otherwise, the Concise Chod, which I described as did Adamantine above, is not the same as the Concise Sadhana, and it includes the Rain/Downpour of of Merit and Siddhi (or Spiritual Attainment).

Are we there yet?
That is not the text I linked. I'll try again but I feel this is falling on deaf ears.
The concise chod (gcod bsdus)= the Rain/Downpour of of Merit and Siddhi (or Spiritual Attainment). When it is arranged into a short practice session that whole thing is also referred to as the concise chod, though that short text is the main stage of the practice. Nobody is claiming that Thinley Norbu invented this arrangement but he did write it down with instructions on instrumentation and melodies etc, which I linked to as an example.
The concise sadhana, ie Throchung (khros chung)= the Vajra Essence sadhana and tsok, which many Dudjom centers practice in the US via Thinley Norbu's arrangement, though again he didn't invent this and it is for the most part based on the activity guide (las byang) found in Dudjom Rinpoche's collected works which outlines the order of the various liturgies.

Both of these abbreviated titles can be found in the Tibetan printings of these texts written in the margins next to the page numbers. There's really not much more to it than that.

However, neither of these are the Throma ngondro, which was correctly pointed out in the link to Berotsana's site. And so I believe the OP's question has been answered.

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