Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Charlie123
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Charlie123 »

Adamantine wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:00 am
yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:08 am
Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:52 pm...I’ll ask..
Adamantine, yes, please do.
about Pema Rigtsal my confusion is Thröma Nakmo practitioners has 3 vows of natural abiding from what i understand, one of them is not cutting hair. and Pema Rigtsal is a bhiksu whose 2 root gurus are from Longchen Nyigthig (Khenchen Dazer and Choying Khyabdel). i have not question about his qualification just wonder how that constitutes him as Dudjom Thröma lineage holder?
Yagmort, I’m not sure where you’re getting these ideas from? Yes there is a yogi hair wang from the Troma that one can take, however plenty of people don’t take that optional samaya and still practice Troma. What’s more, if one does shave the head and take that samaya, one expression of following it is to let the hair grow without any cutting. Another is to always keep it very short, never growing past a certain point like a Bikshu. In fact Dudjom Lingpa’s heart disciple Delgyal Rinpoche from whom Namkha Kyung Dzong lineage descends was a gelong himself, so would have kept his hair accordingly. There is no conflict. He was after all one of the prophesied 13 disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. So it would seem Tulku Pema Rigtsal is following the lineage quite thoroughly. That said, Delgyal Rinpoche’s heart disciple Golok Serta Rinpoche had long dreadlocks that extended to the ground... so he clearly kept the hair vow diligently through letting it grow without ever cutting it... and he received that vow from his short haired monastic yogi teacher Delgyal Rinpoche. I hope this is clarifying things for you. On top of that, these days among modern Dudjom lineage Lamas they sometimes appear very lenient with the hair commitment. In general, once one takes the vow, if you’re keeping the version where you allow it to grow naturally.. you can still cut it as long as you seek permission from the Lama who bestowed the samaya vow. And there’s clearly lineage holders who propagate Troma specifically such as Garab Dorje Rinpoche who don’t keep their hair either very short or very long. So it seems that some Lamas don’t feel keeping their hair very short or uncut is so essential. That said I’m confident Tulku Pema Rigtsal likely follows the conduct of a gelong as well as keeping the hair samaya in the second version i mentioned. You’d have to ask him specifically for more details. Please note that the Dudjom Yangsis both seem to trim their hair, and they would be the primary lineage holders of the entire Tersar including Troma. I’m sure either one of them would be a good source to ask about the particulars of Troma yogi commitments.
Interestingly enough, despite being a Bikshu, the first Degyal Rinpoche actually grew his hair out like a ngakpa. He is depicted this way in thangkas.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Charlie123 »

mandog wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:20 am
Adamantine wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:00 am
yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:08 am
Adamantine, yes, please do.
about Pema Rigtsal my confusion is Thröma Nakmo practitioners has 3 vows of natural abiding from what i understand, one of them is not cutting hair. and Pema Rigtsal is a bhiksu whose 2 root gurus are from Longchen Nyigthig (Khenchen Dazer and Choying Khyabdel). i have not question about his qualification just wonder how that constitutes him as Dudjom Thröma lineage holder?
Yagmort, I’m not sure where you’re getting these ideas from? Yes there is a yogi hair wang from the Troma that one can take, however plenty of people don’t take that optional samaya and still practice Troma. What’s more, if one does shave the head and take that samaya, one expression of following it is to let the hair grow without any cutting. Another is to always keep it very short, never growing past a certain point like a Bikshu. In fact Dudjom Lingpa’s heart disciple Delgyal Rinpoche from whom Namkha Kyung Dzong lineage descends was a gelong himself, so would have kept his hair accordingly. There is no conflict. He was after all one of the prophesied 13 disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. So it would seem Tulku Pema Rigtsal is following the lineage quite thoroughly. That said, Delgyal Rinpoche’s heart disciple Golok Serta Rinpoche had long dreadlocks that extended to the ground... so he clearly kept the hair vow diligently through letting it grow without ever cutting it... and he received that vow from his short haired monastic yogi teacher Delgyal Rinpoche. I hope this is clarifying things for you. On top of that, these days among modern Dudjom lineage Lamas they sometimes appear very lenient with the hair commitment. In general, once one takes the vow, if you’re keeping the version where you allow it to grow naturally.. you can still cut it as long as you seek permission from the Lama who bestowed the samaya vow. And there’s clearly lineage holders who propagate Troma specifically such as Garab Dorje Rinpoche who don’t keep their hair either very short or very long. So it seems that some Lamas don’t feel keeping their hair very short or uncut is so essential. That said I’m confident Tulku Pema Rigtsal likely follows the conduct of a gelong as well as keeping the hair samaya in the second version i mentioned. You’d have to ask him specifically for more details. Please note that the Dudjom Yangsis both seem to trim their hair, and they would be the primary lineage holders of the entire Tersar including Troma. I’m sure either one of them would be a good source to ask about the particulars of Troma yogi commitments.
Interestingly enough, despite being a Bikshu, the first Degyal Rinpoche actually grew his hair out like a ngakpa. He is depicted this way in thangkas.
On second thought, although the first Degyal Rinpoche is definitely shown with long hair in thangkas, I think I am getting his story confused with that of another lama.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

Adamantine, thanks for clarification.
that's not my idea, i've been told that those whose heart practice is Thröma Nakmo has 3 vows: body - not cutting your hair, action - always remain natural and never correct the way you display yourself, mind - remain in true nature of mind. these are not exact quotation but my understanding of them.

mandog, perhaps you were thinking about second Degyal Rinpoche, who disrobed in 1954.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Sonam Wangchug »

Adamantine wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:00 am
yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:08 am
Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:52 pm...I’ll ask..
Adamantine, yes, please do.
about Pema Rigtsal my confusion is Thröma Nakmo practitioners has 3 vows of natural abiding from what i understand, one of them is not cutting hair. and Pema Rigtsal is a bhiksu whose 2 root gurus are from Longchen Nyigthig (Khenchen Dazer and Choying Khyabdel). i have not question about his qualification just wonder how that constitutes him as Dudjom Thröma lineage holder?
Yagmort, I’m not sure where you’re getting these ideas from? Yes there is a yogi hair wang from the Troma that one can take, however plenty of people don’t take that optional samaya and still practice Troma. What’s more, if one does shave the head and take that samaya, one expression of following it is to let the hair grow without any cutting. Another is to always keep it very short, never growing past a certain point like a Bikshu. In fact Dudjom Lingpa’s heart disciple Delgyal Rinpoche from whom Namkha Kyung Dzong lineage descends was a gelong himself, so would have kept his hair accordingly. There is no conflict. He was after all one of the prophesied 13 disciples of Dudjom Lingpa who attained rainbow body. So it would seem Tulku Pema Rigtsal is following the lineage quite thoroughly. That said, Delgyal Rinpoche’s heart disciple Golok Serta Rinpoche had long dreadlocks that extended to the ground... so he clearly kept the hair vow diligently through letting it grow without ever cutting it... and he received that vow from his short haired monastic yogi teacher Delgyal Rinpoche. I hope this is clarifying things for you. On top of that, these days among modern Dudjom lineage Lamas they sometimes appear very lenient with the hair commitment. In general, once one takes the vow, if you’re keeping the version where you allow it to grow naturally.. you can still cut it as long as you seek permission from the Lama who bestowed the samaya vow. And there’s clearly lineage holders who propagate Troma specifically such as Garab Dorje Rinpoche who don’t keep their hair either very short or very long. So it seems that some Lamas don’t feel keeping their hair very short or uncut is so essential. That said I’m confident Tulku Pema Rigtsal likely follows the conduct of a gelong as well as keeping the hair samaya in the second version i mentioned. You’d have to ask him specifically for more details. Please note that the Dudjom Yangsis both seem to trim their hair, and they would be the primary lineage holders of the entire Tersar including Troma. I’m sure either one of them would be a good source to ask about the particulars of Troma yogi commitments.
True that, if long hair was a requirement to be a Dudjom tersar/Throma Ngakmo lineage holder than what about the Dudjom Family

Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche, Dungse Shenpen Dawa Norbu Rinpoche, Dungse Garab Dorje Rinpoche, Dzongsar Jamyang Khyentse Rinpoche, Namgyal Dawa Rinpoche, and Kathok Situ Rinpoche, all of whom did/do not keep hair which they never cut.

Which doesn't diminish those Yogi's who do keep such a commitment. (obviously)
"To have confidence in the teacher is the ultimate refuge." -Rigzin Jigme Lingpa
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Charlie123 »

yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:57 am Adamantine, thanks for clarification.
that's not my idea, i've been told that those whose heart practice is Thröma Nakmo has 3 vows: body - not cutting your hair, action - always remain natural and never correct the way you display yourself, mind - remain in true nature of mind. these are not exact quotation but my understanding of them.

mandog, perhaps you were thinking about second Degyal Rinpoche, who disrobed in 1954.
nope,
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... inting.jpg
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine »

mandog wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:07 am
yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:57 am Adamantine, thanks for clarification.
that's not my idea, i've been told that those whose heart practice is Thröma Nakmo has 3 vows: body - not cutting your hair, action - always remain natural and never correct the way you display yourself, mind - remain in true nature of mind. these are not exact quotation but my understanding of them.

mandog, perhaps you were thinking about second Degyal Rinpoche, who disrobed in 1954.
nope,
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... inting.jpg

Yeah perhaps my mistake in this case, I thought I’d seen a statue of him with short hair however I see he is portrayed with long hair in a few renditions so perhaps this is the case where the higher vows subsume the lower (monastic) and perhaps he kept it long following the yogi vows. I’ll have to ask my Lama friends who are more scholars of that lineage. Regardless, it was taught by one of the late primary Troma lineage holders that once you receive the hair blessing in the Wang you can keep this samaya by either keeping the hair very short, or totally uncut. So it would seem that Tulku Pema Rigtsal is following the former version. Either way there’s conduct involving what you do with your cut hair, or if you never cut then the hair that naturally falls.. that people without this vow don’t really need to be so concerned with..
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

i am not making any claims, i just thought that being Dudjom Tersar lineage holder doesn't mean one has Thröma as his main practice, does it? long hair vow is specifically Thröma vow. so my way of thinking is even if Pema Rigtsal Rinpoche is Dudjom Tersar lineage holder and coming from Dudjom Töluk family, but have studied mostly with Longchen Nyingthig gurus and has bhiksu vows, that gave me impression he is not "dedicated" Thröma practitioner (chodpa). same with other Dudjom Tersar lineage holders. please correct me.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by TrimePema »

yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:59 pm i am not making any claims, i just thought that being Dudjom Tersar lineage holder doesn't mean one has Thröma as his main practice, does it? long hair vow is specifically Thröma vow. so my way of thinking is even if Pema Rigtsal Rinpoche is Dudjom Tersar lineage holder and coming from Dudjom Töluk family, but have studied mostly with Longchen Nyingthig gurus and has bhiksu vows, that gave me impression he is not "dedicated" Thröma practitioner (chodpa). same with other Dudjom Tersar lineage holders. please correct me.
Once again, a hair empowerment is a yogi vow and is not necessarily particular to Throma. Earlier it was stated that in Throma the hair empowerment is an optional samaya.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine »

yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 3:59 pm i am not making any claims, i just thought that being Dudjom Tersar lineage holder doesn't mean one has Thröma as his main practice, does it? long hair vow is specifically Thröma vow. so my way of thinking is even if Pema Rigtsal Rinpoche is Dudjom Tersar lineage holder and coming from Dudjom Töluk family, but have studied mostly with Longchen Nyingthig gurus and has bhiksu vows, that gave me impression he is not "dedicated" Thröma practitioner (chodpa). same with other Dudjom Tersar lineage holders. please correct me.
Yagmort, you’ll have to take my word: He is lineage holder of Namkha Khyung Dzong lineage: this IS a Troma lineage. Definitely Dudjom Lingpa’s Troma is his main practice. It doesn’t matter if he received Dzogchen teachings from some other great Lamas. His root lineage is the Dudjom Troma cycle and all the gompas he heads in Nepal are mainly practicing Troma. I know this for certain. Have no doubt.
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Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

Adamantine, thank you brother! :)

but please, whenever you have an opportunity to make an inquiry, ask if it is certainly so. not that i doubt your knowledge - but Pema Rigtsal stated clearly in his book that those 2 are not just "some other great lamas", those are his root gurus, especially Khenchen Dazer.

again, thank you for your efforts to clarify these questions for me!
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Charlie123 »

Adamantine wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:53 pm
mandog wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:07 am
yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:57 am Adamantine, thanks for clarification.
that's not my idea, i've been told that those whose heart practice is Thröma Nakmo has 3 vows: body - not cutting your hair, action - always remain natural and never correct the way you display yourself, mind - remain in true nature of mind. these are not exact quotation but my understanding of them.

mandog, perhaps you were thinking about second Degyal Rinpoche, who disrobed in 1954.
nope,
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... inting.jpg

Yeah perhaps my mistake in this case, I thought I’d seen a statue of him with short hair however I see he is portrayed with long hair in a few renditions so perhaps this is the case where the higher vows subsume the lower (monastic) and perhaps he kept it long following the yogi vows. I’ll have to ask my Lama friends who are more scholars of that lineage. Regardless, it was taught by one of the late primary Troma lineage holders that once you receive the hair blessing in the Wang you can keep this samaya by either keeping the hair very short, or totally uncut. So it would seem that Tulku Pema Rigtsal is following the former version. Either way there’s conduct involving what you do with your cut hair, or if you never cut then the hair that naturally falls.. that people without this vow don’t really need to be so concerned with..
I’d be interested to hear anything you discover about Degyal Rinpoche.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine »

yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:38 pm Adamantine, thank you brother! :)

but please, whenever you have an opportunity to make an inquiry, ask if it is certainly so. not that i doubt your knowledge - but Pema Rigtsal stated clearly in his book that those 2 are not just "some other great lamas", those are his root gurus, especially Khenchen Dazer.

again, thank you for your efforts to clarify these questions for me!

Right. Those are two of many he mentions. Did you gloss over the entry about Dudjom Rinpoche and Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche? It was in DTNR’s company that I first met TPRR. As well, he carries family lineage of Namkha Khyung Dzong..being the son of the second Delgyal Rinpoche. He also mentions his “sublime father” in the Guru passage of the introduction. . no question he also received all the Troma transmissions from his father as well as Dudjom Rinpoche and DTNR and others . What doubt is left to have?
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

none by now, thank you.

just to clarfiy, all my confusion stemmed from the book of Pema Rigtsal and his site.

yes he mentioned his sublime father and yet he has no separate section about him in his book. instead, he has sections about Choying Khyabdal, Khenchen Dazer, Thrinley Norbu Rinpoche, Dodrubchen Rinpoche and Yangtang Rinpoche.

in his book he says:
...in short, the little knowledge i have and my external appearance as a dharma practitioner, directly and indirectly, are solely due to the kindness of Khen Dawai Wozer Rinpoche. He has influenced me more than anyone else in my life, and i acknowledge him as one of my root gurus endowed with the threefold kindness i can never forget...
<...>
I will now describe the conduct and deeds of my lords if refuge...
and he proceeds with the entries about Choying Khyabdal, Khenchen Dazer, Thrinley Norbu Rinpoche, Didrubchen Rinpoche and Yangtang Rinpoche.


on his site it is said:
Rinpoche received an early education in reading, writing and ritual practices from his father the Second Degyal Rinpoche. At the age of nineteen, in 1982, he became the disciple of the Great Master ‘H. E. Khenpo Daser Rinpoche’ from whom he received teaching of general sutra and tantra texts as well as thirteen major philosophical treatises (Shungchen Chusum) for ten years...
he never mentioned Thröma in his book, but he mentiones his Vajrakilaya practice several times, including 1 year Vajrakilaya retreat.

i don't doubt that he holds Namkha Khyung Dzong and Dudjom Tersar lineages, but all that made me think that his main practices are Longchen Nyinthig and Vajrakilaya, instead of Dudjom Tersar Thröma.

i hope this helps you to see where my confusion came from.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine »

yagmort wrote: Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:46 am none by now, thank you.

just to clarfiy, all my confusion stemmed from the book of Pema Rigtsal and his site.

yes he mentioned his sublime father and yet he has no separate section about him in his book. instead, he has sections about Choying Khyabdal, Khenchen Dazer, Thrinley Norbu Rinpoche, Dodrubchen Rinpoche and Yangtang Rinpoche.

in his book he says:
...in short, the little knowledge i have and my external appearance as a dharma practitioner, directly and indirectly, are solely due to the kindness of Khen Dawai Wozer Rinpoche. He has influenced me more than anyone else in my life, and i acknowledge him as one of my root gurus endowed with the threefold kindness i can never forget...
<...>
I will now describe the conduct and deeds of my lords if refuge...
and he proceeds with the entries about Choying Khyabdal, Khenchen Dazer, Thrinley Norbu Rinpoche, Didrubchen Rinpoche and Yangtang Rinpoche.


on his site it is said:
Rinpoche received an early education in reading, writing and ritual practices from his father the Second Degyal Rinpoche. At the age of nineteen, in 1982, he became the disciple of the Great Master ‘H. E. Khenpo Daser Rinpoche’ from whom he received teaching of general sutra and tantra texts as well as thirteen major philosophical treatises (Shungchen Chusum) for ten years...
he never mentioned Thröma in his book, but he mentiones his Vajrakilaya practice several times, including 1 year Vajrakilaya retreat.

i don't doubt that he holds Namkha Khyung Dzong and Dudjom Tersar lineages, but all that made me think that his main practices are Longchen Nyinthig and Vajrakilaya, instead of Dudjom Tersar Thröma.

i hope this helps you to see where my confusion came from.
Hi Yagmort, it doesn’t matter where the confusion came from, just that it can be removed!

Look to page 120 or 124 for instance to see references to Delgyal Rinpoche, Troma adept and progenitor of Namkha Khyung Dzong. I’m sure there are other references to him elsewhere in there as well. And note that in his list of his “main gurus” that begins towards the bottom of page 2 of the introduction the very first on the list is “Lord of Refuge, Dudjom Jigdral Yeshe Dorje Rinpoche”. The one listed first would indicate the highest degree of importance. Why did he choose only four to write a section about, out of his long list? We’d have to ask him , however my guess is that the book wasn’t about his relationship with his gurus or their qualities, as if it was he could have certainly filled many hundreds of pages... so he chose four of them who he wanted to use aspects of their conduct and his dynamic with him to illustrate things relevant to the book that he might refer to later if even indirectly. Perhaps also he chose ones that weren’t as world famous as Dudjom Rinpoche, Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, Trulshik Rinpoche, etc since there’s so much already written about them from a great variety of authors.. whereas there may not be much at all written about these others even though they were listed later on in his initial list of “main gurus”....

Regardless, I’ve practiced medium length Troma Tsok with him multiple times while he’s been the leading Lama, and he is certainly a Troma practitioner. Many Dudjom Lamas that focus on Troma also do Vajrakilaya, and a 1 year Kilaya retreat is just a blip in the life of retreat of a Lama such as TPRR. My own first main Guru was a great Troma adept and lineage holder however he also practiced Kilaya and Longchen Nyintik as well. How? Well he spent over 35 years or so in retreat... these practices can be complementary and not contradictory. However any lineage holder of Namkha Khyung Dzong will be heavily focused on Troma... it’s the way of this particular lineage..
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Adamantine »

Adamantine wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:53 pm
mandog wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 5:07 am
yagmort wrote: Thu Jan 09, 2020 2:57 am Adamantine, thanks for clarification.
that's not my idea, i've been told that those whose heart practice is Thröma Nakmo has 3 vows: body - not cutting your hair, action - always remain natural and never correct the way you display yourself, mind - remain in true nature of mind. these are not exact quotation but my understanding of them.

mandog, perhaps you were thinking about second Degyal Rinpoche, who disrobed in 1954.
nope,
https://www.rigpawiki.org/index.php?tit ... inting.jpg

Yeah perhaps my mistake in this case, I thought I’d seen a statue of him with short hair however I see he is portrayed with long hair in a few renditions so perhaps this is the case where the higher vows subsume the lower (monastic) and perhaps he kept it long following the yogi vows. I’ll have to ask my Lama friends who are more scholars of that lineage. Regardless, it was taught by one of the late primary Troma lineage holders that once you receive the hair blessing in the Wang you can keep this samaya by either keeping the hair very short, or totally uncut. So it would seem that Tulku Pema Rigtsal is following the former version. Either way there’s conduct involving what you do with your cut hair, or if you never cut then the hair that naturally falls.. that people without this vow don’t really need to be so concerned with..
So I spoke with a Lama friend from the Namkha Kyung Dzong lineage and they confirmed that Degyal Rinpoche was often in retreat and so his hair would grow long in retreat and that’s why he is represented that way in images you may see. However while not in retreat he would adhere to the outer conduct of a gelong which included the shaved head. So the representation I saw with him w/ short hair is simply him out of retreat in gelong appearance, as I suspected.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by plain »

Just to put out there, Chakung Jigme Wangdrak Rinpoche is a really wonderful lama in the family lineage / Namkha Khyung Dzong lineage of Dudjom Lingpa.
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Dharmasagara »

Adamantine wrote: Wed Jan 08, 2020 4:52 pm
In this Dudjom lineage, as I understand it, many historically would jump right into Troma ngondro as their starting point, and go through the entire Troma path as their sole focus. I’m not sure if that’s still the case in the regions such as Humla, Nepal where the large gompas are where it’s still widely propagated. I’ll ask.
Hi everybody,
let me share a bit of information I have been able to gather with respect to the Thölug Upper Thröma tradition (Source: 2nd Degyal Rinpoche's oldest son, Gyepa Rinpoche):

To all I know the Sater Ngöndro plays an enormously important part in the Thölug tradition. It's the first thing in the morning (after practicing the Black Feast) you do. Only then you will start with the (middle length) Thröma sadhana. It's the sole support for accumulating the Vajra Guru mantra within Thölug, as there is no other sadhana than Thröma. And singing the Vajra Guru mantra was even used in place of playing gyaling when welcoming a high lama (they simply didn't have gyalings). Plus, Degyal Rinpoche regularly advised his students to quietly recite the Vajra Guru mantra instead of gossiping around while waiting for things to happen. So, I am certain the Sater Ngöndro was done there prior to starting the Thröma path proper with the Thröma Ngöndro (though exactly this question I didn't ask Rinpoche, it's on my to-do-list, just to make sure).

In the course of a (whole day) Thröma practice one would then insert the Thröma Ngöndro in the beginning of the sadhana (after the Overpowering by Splendor); or in the 2nd session of a Thröma Approach retreat. According to the tradition of Golok Serta Rinpoche one would even go on to insert the short Dagnang Pure Vision Tersar Ngöndro at the beginning of the 3rd and a longer Ngöndro authored by Degyal Rinpoche at the beginning of the 4th session. So there would be a lot of Ngöndro practice, actually. Which is not too troublesome, as in private practice repetitions of sadhana parts are done with only small damaru and bell: "Much faster, so to have enough time for the accumulation of mantras", that's what Rinpoche said to me smiling at my slightly confused face upon finding out about the small damaru.

By the way, both the Sater and Dagnang Ngöndros are recited nowadays in the rendering of HH Düdjom Rinpoche Jigdräl Yeshe Dorje (since the time Golok Serta Rinpoche met HH in India and accepted him as his teacher). Same goes with the use of HH's Calling the Lama from Afar (the one which links his three names with the three kayas).

Hope that helps a bit!

Cheers Sagara
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by yagmort »

Dharmasagara, very valuable info, thank you!
if i recall Yudron has mentioned that in Thöluk they do SaTer ngöndro first, then Thröma ngöndro.
Dharmasagara wrote: Mon Jul 27, 2020 12:35 pm a longer Ngöndro authored by Degyal Rinpoche at
i didn't now there is a ngöndro by Degyal Rinpoche. do you have any bits of info on that one?
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Lingpupa
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Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Lingpupa »

Metacomment (freely ignorable): it's great to see members like Adamantine and Dharmasagara (in particular - there are others) sharing real knowledge rather than just opining. Thanks guys.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/
Dharmasagara
Posts: 19
Joined: Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:00 am
Location: Europe

Re: Dudjom Tröma Nagmo ngondro

Post by Dharmasagara »

yagmort wrote: Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:56 am
i didn't now there is a ngöndro by Degyal Rinpoche. do you have any bits of info on that one?
I have the Tibetan text. Pretty straightforward ngöndro, called zab gsang rdzogs pa chen po'i sngon 'gro/ yang dag lm du drang ba'i ngag don/ skal ldan bde la 'god pa'i shing rta bzhugs, hence sometimes referred to as "Dzogchen Ngöndro". The first part is a purification of speech which is generally used in the Namkha Khyungdzong tradition in the morning, before starting the Sater Ngöndro.
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