Empowerments are for life?

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明安 Myoan
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by 明安 Myoan » Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:53 pm

PeterC wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:42 am
...
Thanks, PeterC. Very clear information.
With a heart wandering in ignorance down this path and that, to guide me I simply say Namu-Amida-Butsu. -- Ippen

The Fundamental Vow [of Amitabha Buddha] is just for such people as woodcutters and grassgatherers, vegetable pickers, drawers of water and the like, illiterate folk who merely recite the Buddha's name wholeheartedly, confident that as a result of saying "Namu Amida Butsu" they will be born into the western land. -- Master Hōnen

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:57 pm

As an aside (to the topic) - i thought empowerments were until Buddhahood; not just for this life.

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:57 pm
As an aside (to the topic) - i thought empowerments were until Buddhahood; not just for this life.
I remember Malcolm saying here before that since empowerments are taken onto the body, they only last for this lifetime. Like pratimoksha vows, but unlike bodhisattva vows.

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Motova » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:55 am

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:57 pm
As an aside (to the topic) - i thought empowerments were until Buddhahood; not just for this life.
I remember Malcolm saying here before that since empowerments are taken onto the body, they only last for this lifetime. Like pratimoksha vows, but unlike bodhisattva vows.
So do I.

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by TrimePema » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:43 am

Josef wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:51 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:35 am
Josef wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:28 am


Vajrasattva most certainly requires transmission. At the very least one needs the reading transmission of the 100 syllable mantra. This transmission is essential for all Vajrayana practitioners in general but has special emphasis in the Nyingma transmission.
no. hh jigme phuntsok has a vajrasattva terma that needs no lung or transmission at all.
That's one example. The other aspect to consider in terms of Khenpo Jigphun's Vajrasattva is that there is not need to receive the lung for the sadhana due to the prevalence and of the transmission of Vajrasattva in general in Tibet. The assumption is that one has already at least received the lung of the 100 syllable mantra.
maybe. colophon suggests otherwise.

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:40 am

TrimePema wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:35 am
Josef wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:28 am
TrimePema wrote:
Sat Feb 02, 2019 11:57 pm

vajrasattva doesnt require transmission
Vajrasattva most certainly requires transmission. At the very least one needs the reading transmission of the 100 syllable mantra. This transmission is essential for all Vajrayana practitioners in general but has special emphasis in the Nyingma transmission.
no. hh jigme phuntsok has a vajrasattva terma that needs no lung or transmission at all.
Some evidence please.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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heart
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by heart » Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:43 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:40 am
TrimePema wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:35 am
Josef wrote:
Sun Feb 03, 2019 2:28 am


Vajrasattva most certainly requires transmission. At the very least one needs the reading transmission of the 100 syllable mantra. This transmission is essential for all Vajrayana practitioners in general but has special emphasis in the Nyingma transmission.
no. hh jigme phuntsok has a vajrasattva terma that needs no lung or transmission at all.
Some evidence please.
Here is the colophon:
The above terma appeared in the pure vision of “Ah Wang Luo Zhu Zong Mei” [ Jigme Phuntsok: Terton Sogyal – Lerab Lingpa – Guru of H.H. the 13th and 14th Dalai Lama ] on 7 April 1997 and is recorded by disciple “Holder-of-perfect-vows”. Proper recitation of 400,000 of the above heart mantra in accordance to the Dharma teachings is equivalent in spiritual merit to 500 billion recitation of the six-syllable mantra. If the practice is practised properly, in this live, obstacles will be dispelled, life- span will be extended, wealth will flourish, sickness will be eliminated, all wishes will be fulfilled and so on. In the next live, one will definitely be reborn into Dewachen - Pure Land of Limitless Bliss or any other Pure Land one desires. This practice for dispelling obscurations can be practised by practitioners of Sutrayana, Vajrayana or people without initiation. May all understand the above. The above is authenticated by Jigme Phuntsok and thousands of the noble community of Sangha of La Rong Monastic University. Increased Auspiciousness!

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Grigoris » Thu Feb 07, 2019 3:27 pm

heart wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:43 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:40 am
TrimePema wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:35 am


no. hh jigme phuntsok has a vajrasattva terma that needs no lung or transmission at all.
Some evidence please.
Here is the colophon:
The above terma appeared in the pure vision of “Ah Wang Luo Zhu Zong Mei” [ Jigme Phuntsok: Terton Sogyal – Lerab Lingpa – Guru of H.H. the 13th and 14th Dalai Lama ] on 7 April 1997 and is recorded by disciple “Holder-of-perfect-vows”. Proper recitation of 400,000 of the above heart mantra in accordance to the Dharma teachings is equivalent in spiritual merit to 500 billion recitation of the six-syllable mantra. If the practice is practised properly, in this live, obstacles will be dispelled, life- span will be extended, wealth will flourish, sickness will be eliminated, all wishes will be fulfilled and so on. In the next live, one will definitely be reborn into Dewachen - Pure Land of Limitless Bliss or any other Pure Land one desires. This practice for dispelling obscurations can be practised by practitioners of Sutrayana, Vajrayana or people without initiation. May all understand the above. The above is authenticated by Jigme Phuntsok and thousands of the noble community of Sangha of La Rong Monastic University. Increased Auspiciousness!

/magnus
Thank you Magnus.

It seems the text says you do not need a wang (initiation), it does not say that you do not need a lung (ritual reading) or tri (oral explanation).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:24 pm

Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:57 pm
As an aside (to the topic) - i thought empowerments were until Buddhahood; not just for this life.
I remember Malcolm saying here before that since empowerments are taken onto the body, they only last for this lifetime. Like pratimoksha vows, but unlike bodhisattva vows.

Interesting. I was aware of that in reference to the pratimoksha vows but not in regards to empowerments. Plus I could have sworn that some empowerments included a part vowing to take that particular yidam as a yidam until Buddhahood. I certainly know it's in some practice texts.

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sangyey
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by sangyey » Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:50 pm

Is there something about having three years to repair a Samaya otherwise it’s not repairable?

Thank you.

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by amanitamusc » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:03 am

heart wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 12:43 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 9:40 am
TrimePema wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:35 am


no. hh jigme phuntsok has a vajrasattva terma that needs no lung or transmission at all.
Some evidence please.
Here is the colophon:
The above terma appeared in the pure vision of “Ah Wang Luo Zhu Zong Mei” [ Jigme Phuntsok: Terton Sogyal – Lerab Lingpa – Guru of H.H. the 13th and 14th Dalai Lama ] on 7 April 1997 and is recorded by disciple “Holder-of-perfect-vows”. Proper recitation of 400,000 of the above heart mantra in accordance to the Dharma teachings is equivalent in spiritual merit to 500 billion recitation of the six-syllable mantra. If the practice is practised properly, in this live, obstacles will be dispelled, life- span will be extended, wealth will flourish, sickness will be eliminated, all wishes will be fulfilled and so on. In the next live, one will definitely be reborn into Dewachen - Pure Land of Limitless Bliss or any other Pure Land one desires. This practice for dispelling obscurations can be practised by practitioners of Sutrayana, Vajrayana or people without initiation. May all understand the above. The above is authenticated by Jigme Phuntsok and thousands of the noble community of Sangha of La Rong Monastic University. Increased Auspiciousness!

/magnus
This practice is accumulated once every year at Serthar.If anyone is interested they could email Khenpo Sodarjye.One who
Khenpo Jigpun chose to run Serthar.http://khenposodargye.org/about/contact/ and ask him if lung is required.
There is a book with detailed instruction and pics on this practice https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/16142 ... UTF8&psc=1
There is also a dvd in Chinese .

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Josef » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:42 am

TrimePema wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:43 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:51 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 1:35 am


no. hh jigme phuntsok has a vajrasattva terma that needs no lung or transmission at all.
That's one example. The other aspect to consider in terms of Khenpo Jigphun's Vajrasattva is that there is not need to receive the lung for the sadhana due to the prevalence and of the transmission of Vajrasattva in general in Tibet. The assumption is that one has already at least received the lung of the 100 syllable mantra.
maybe. colophon suggests otherwise.
No, it doesnt. It states that the text can be practiced "without empowerment". The only thing that suggests is that one can practice this particular sadhana without the empowerment associated with it. It in no way suggests that Vajrasattva doesnt require transmission.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by TrimePema » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:25 pm

Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:42 am
TrimePema wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:43 am
Josef wrote:
Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:51 pm


That's one example. The other aspect to consider in terms of Khenpo Jigphun's Vajrasattva is that there is not need to receive the lung for the sadhana due to the prevalence and of the transmission of Vajrasattva in general in Tibet. The assumption is that one has already at least received the lung of the 100 syllable mantra.
maybe. colophon suggests otherwise.
No, it doesnt. It states that the text can be practiced "without empowerment". The only thing that suggests is that one can practice this particular sadhana without the empowerment associated with it. It in no way suggests that Vajrasattva doesnt require transmission.
the colophon in my veraion says: "this... can be practiced by anyone, even if they have yet to receive initiation". no the assumption is not that you would already have received the lung due to prevalence of vajrasattva, because it also says you can practice this if you are a sutrayana or mahayana practitioner, who would not have already received the lung. likewise with vajrasattva practice i have been told by numerous teachers that it can be engaged without any transmission at all, although it is better to receive the transmission. this is generally what is said about any practice in which there is a frontal visualization. there's a reason it says very clearly "ANYONE can practice this... [NO MATTER what prior training they do or do not have]" and then "This should be understood clearly." Where you DO need a vajrasattva empowerment is if you are going to do some self generation like in certain other types of vajrasattva centric practices like shitro, where you would also need a lung and tri. but not for purification and use of 4 opponent powers.

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:39 pm

sangyey wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:50 pm
Is there something about having three years to repair a Samaya otherwise it’s not repairable?

Thank you.
Realistically, if you are not doing tsok at least once a month, then you are not doing Vajrayana (in any serious way).

There are tsok practices that take five minutes (specifically designed for accumulating tsok) so....

What's your excuse? :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Miroku » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:39 pm
sangyey wrote:
Fri Feb 08, 2019 10:50 pm
Is there something about having three years to repair a Samaya otherwise it’s not repairable?

Thank you.
Realistically, if you are not doing tsok at least once a month, then you are not doing Vajrayana (in any serious way).

There are tsok practices that take five minutes (specifically designed for accumulating tsok) so....

What's your excuse? :smile:
I don't disagree really, However, there are so many other ways how to repair ones samaya. Even going through a whole ngöndro sadhana should do the trick or any 7 branch offering. Ofc tsok is the superior method.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Grigoris » Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:13 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:11 pm
I don't disagree really, However, there are so many other ways how to repair ones samaya. Even going through a whole ngöndro sadhana should do the trick or any 7 branch offering. Ofc tsok is the superior method.
Tsok is easy and fun. What more could you want from a practice? :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Josef » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:02 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:25 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:42 am
TrimePema wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:43 am


maybe. colophon suggests otherwise.
No, it doesnt. It states that the text can be practiced "without empowerment". The only thing that suggests is that one can practice this particular sadhana without the empowerment associated with it. It in no way suggests that Vajrasattva doesnt require transmission.
the colophon in my veraion says: "this... can be practiced by anyone, even if they have yet to receive initiation". no the assumption is not that you would already have received the lung due to prevalence of vajrasattva, because it also says you can practice this if you are a sutrayana or mahayana practitioner, who would not have already received the lung. likewise with vajrasattva practice i have been told by numerous teachers that it can be engaged without any transmission at all, although it is better to receive the transmission. this is generally what is said about any practice in which there is a frontal visualization. there's a reason it says very clearly "ANYONE can practice this... [NO MATTER what prior training they do or do not have]" and then "This should be understood clearly." Where you DO need a vajrasattva empowerment is if you are going to do some self generation like in certain other types of vajrasattva centric practices like shitro, where you would also need a lung and tri. but not for purification and use of 4 opponent powers.
In your reluctance to admit a mistake you are missing the point, which is a common feature amongst beginners who spend time arguing on the internet. "This" refers to that particular practice, not Vajrasattva in general. You stated earlier, "vajrasattva doesnt require transmission". That is not an accurate statement. Had you said, "Khenpo Jigphun has a Vajrasattva practice that doesnt require transmission we wouldnt be having this conversation.
Last edited by Josef on Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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Miroku
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Miroku » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:08 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:13 pm
Tsok is easy and fun. What more could you want from a practice? :smile:
Oh yeah it definetly is! Just mentioning there are other ways. It seems that quite a few lamas although they do tsok at the end of the teachings there sometimes is not some instructions tsok-wise. For example Garchen Rinpoche does not seem to give much instruction on it. But yeah I definetly am a tsok guy. :D
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Lhasa » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:39 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:08 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:13 pm
Tsok is easy and fun. What more could you want from a practice? :smile:
Oh yeah it definetly is! Just mentioning there are other ways. It seems that quite a few lamas although they do tsok at the end of the teachings there sometimes is not some instructions tsok-wise. For example Garchen Rinpoche does not seem to give much instruction on it. But yeah I definetly am a tsok guy. :D
Wow, me too. I haven't had any teachings on tsok, just seen it done online. Where would I get teachings on tsok online?

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Miroku
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Miroku » Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:56 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:39 pm
Miroku wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:08 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 8:13 pm
Tsok is easy and fun. What more could you want from a practice? :smile:
Oh yeah it definetly is! Just mentioning there are other ways. It seems that quite a few lamas although they do tsok at the end of the teachings there sometimes is not some instructions tsok-wise. For example Garchen Rinpoche does not seem to give much instruction on it. But yeah I definetly am a tsok guy. :D
Wow, me too. I haven't had any teachings on tsok, just seen it done online. Where would I get teachings on tsok online?
I wrote to GBI about it so we will see. :)
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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