Empowerments are for life?

haha
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by haha » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:11 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:24 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 9:57 pm
As an aside (to the topic) - i thought empowerments were until Buddhahood; not just for this life.
I remember Malcolm saying here before that since empowerments are taken onto the body, they only last for this lifetime. Like pratimoksha vows, but unlike bodhisattva vows.

Interesting. I was aware of that in reference to the pratimoksha vows but not in regards to empowerments. Plus I could have sworn that some empowerments included a part vowing to take that particular yidam as a yidam until Buddhahood. I certainly know it's in some practice texts.
I remembered that one will attain complete buddhahood in 16 lifetimes, just keeping 14 root samayas; without practicing the Yidam or sadhana.

haha
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by haha » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:21 pm

This book is for Buddhist practitioners, particularly those who have had an introduction to the Vajrasattva practice from a qualified teacher and are looking to perform a sadhana, or meditational liturgy, of Vajrasattva. Normally a practitioner needs an empowerment or initiation to visualize tantric deities. The unique quality of the sadhana in this book is that it does not require such an empowerment. Nonetheless, a Vajrasattva initiation would increase the strength of the practitioner’s connection and commitment.

https://www.wisdompubs.org/book/vajrasa ... troduction
As amazon.com does not have this information.

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:28 pm

haha wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:11 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:24 pm
Thomas Amundsen wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:40 pm


I remember Malcolm saying here before that since empowerments are taken onto the body, they only last for this lifetime. Like pratimoksha vows, but unlike bodhisattva vows.

Interesting. I was aware of that in reference to the pratimoksha vows but not in regards to empowerments. Plus I could have sworn that some empowerments included a part vowing to take that particular yidam as a yidam until Buddhahood. I certainly know it's in some practice texts.
I remembered that one will attain complete buddhahood in 16 lifetimes, just keeping 14 root samayas; without practicing the Yidam or sadhana.
My take on this is that even if you're not practicing the Yidam or sadhana in life #16, you will be at some point if you're going to achieve complete Buddhahood. It's not like the subsequent 15 lives can be spent with minimal effort and you'll get there. Receiving that first empowerment and keeping minimal samaya will provide the appropriate merit and interdependence so that life #15 you have more conditions to have a deeper practice -- which continues to build over the subsequent lives until you've achieved Buddhahood. The more you practice the sooner you get there.

TrimePema
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by TrimePema » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:18 pm

Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 9:02 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 7:25 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:42 am

No, it doesnt. It states that the text can be practiced "without empowerment". The only thing that suggests is that one can practice this particular sadhana without the empowerment associated with it. It in no way suggests that Vajrasattva doesnt require transmission.
the colophon in my veraion says: "this... can be practiced by anyone, even if they have yet to receive initiation". no the assumption is not that you would already have received the lung due to prevalence of vajrasattva, because it also says you can practice this if you are a sutrayana or mahayana practitioner, who would not have already received the lung. likewise with vajrasattva practice i have been told by numerous teachers that it can be engaged without any transmission at all, although it is better to receive the transmission. this is generally what is said about any practice in which there is a frontal visualization. there's a reason it says very clearly "ANYONE can practice this... [NO MATTER what prior training they do or do not have]" and then "This should be understood clearly." Where you DO need a vajrasattva empowerment is if you are going to do some self generation like in certain other types of vajrasattva centric practices like shitro, where you would also need a lung and tri. but not for purification and use of 4 opponent powers.
In your reluctance to admit a mistake you are missing the point, which is a common feature amongst beginners who spend time arguing on the internet. "This" refers to that particular practice, not Vajrasattva in general. You stated earlier, "vajrasattva doesnt require transmission". That is not an accurate statement. Had you said, "Khenpo Jigphun has a Vajrasattva practice that doesnt require transmission we wouldnt be having this conversation.
that's true. Firstly I was just making a point that HHKJP Vajrasattva can be done without an empowerment or lung or tri and is supposed to be shared with everyone as such - so therefore it is actually the case that nobody needs a vajrasattva empowerment to practice vajrasattva anymore since anyone can give the practice to anyone else without restriction.

as an example of what i've also just said, you also do not need empowerment or transmission to practice the vajrasattva that FPMT practices, as it is a frontal generation.

also, HHDL himself said when you receive any HYT initiation you also receive permission to do vajrasattva practices.

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Grigoris
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:37 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:18 pm
that's true. Firstly I was just making a point that HHKJP Vajrasattva can be done without an empowerment or lung or tri and is supposed to be shared with everyone as such - so therefore it is actually the case that nobody needs a vajrasattva empowerment to practice vajrasattva anymore since anyone can give the practice to anyone else without restriction.
It is these sort of confused statements that give people the wrong impression.

Does the specific practice by HHKJP involve self-visualisation?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

TrimePema
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by TrimePema » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:12 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:37 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 7:18 pm
that's true. Firstly I was just making a point that HHKJP Vajrasattva can be done without an empowerment or lung or tri and is supposed to be shared with everyone as such - so therefore it is actually the case that nobody needs a vajrasattva empowerment to practice vajrasattva anymore since anyone can give the practice to anyone else without restriction.
It is these sort of confused statements that give people the wrong impression.

Does the specific practice by HHKJP involve self-visualisation?
no. it is a single deity vajrasattva practice for purification.

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Grigoris
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:15 am

TrimePema wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:12 am
no. it is a single deity vajrasattva practice for purification.
Well that it explains it then...

6 syllable or 100 syllable mantra?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

haha
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by haha » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:44 pm

Jangchup Donden wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:28 pm
haha wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:11 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote:
Thu Feb 07, 2019 5:24 pm



Interesting. I was aware of that in reference to the pratimoksha vows but not in regards to empowerments. Plus I could have sworn that some empowerments included a part vowing to take that particular yidam as a yidam until Buddhahood. I certainly know it's in some practice texts.
I remembered that one will attain complete buddhahood in 16 lifetimes, just keeping 14 root samayas; without practicing the Yidam or sadhana.
My take on this is that even if you're not practicing the Yidam or sadhana in life #16, you will be at some point if you're going to achieve complete Buddhahood. It's not like the subsequent 15 lives can be spent with minimal effort and you'll get there. Receiving that first empowerment and keeping minimal samaya will provide the appropriate merit and interdependence so that life #15 you have more conditions to have a deeper practice -- which continues to build over the subsequent lives until you've achieved Buddhahood. The more you practice the sooner you get there.
In that statement, my point is that receiving the empowerment and keeping the samaya will not just end after a life. Besides, it also shows the value of samaya. One may say sadhana practice is the meditation, whereas samaya is the conduct. So, the conduct also leads to buddhahood slowly.

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Jangchup Donden
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Jangchup Donden » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:35 pm

haha wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:44 pm
Jangchup Donden wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 5:28 pm
haha wrote:
Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:11 pm


I remembered that one will attain complete buddhahood in 16 lifetimes, just keeping 14 root samayas; without practicing the Yidam or sadhana.
My take on this is that even if you're not practicing the Yidam or sadhana in life #16, you will be at some point if you're going to achieve complete Buddhahood. It's not like the subsequent 15 lives can be spent with minimal effort and you'll get there. Receiving that first empowerment and keeping minimal samaya will provide the appropriate merit and interdependence so that life #15 you have more conditions to have a deeper practice -- which continues to build over the subsequent lives until you've achieved Buddhahood. The more you practice the sooner you get there.
In that statement, my point is that receiving the empowerment and keeping the samaya will not just end after a life. Besides, it also shows the value of samaya. One may say sadhana practice is the meditation, whereas samaya is the conduct. So, the conduct also leads to buddhahood slowly.
Oh then I misread you. I agree that it lasts after the end of a life. And of course meditation and conduct eventually merge. Although it would be great if I could find some kind of textual verification of that samaya lasting beyond a single life...

Pero
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Pero » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:13 pm

If anyone wants to receive the lung for Khenpo Jigme Phuntsok's Vajrasattva practice talked about in this thread, you have a chance on Sunday to get it from Khenpo Sodargye via Facebook stream.
https://www.facebook.com/Sodargye/ wrote:Vajrasattva Purification Practice—A Wish-Fulfilling Jewel

Lecturer: Khenpo Sodargye
Content: Giving teaching and oral transmission on Vajrasattva Purification Practice—A Wish-Fulfilling Jewel, which is a mind terma of H.H. Jigme Phuntsok Rinpoche.
When: June 9 (Sunday), 7:30 PM (UTC+8, Beijing Standard Time)
Languages:
Primarily in Mandarin Chinese. Simultaneous interpretation is available in English here at Khenpo’s official Facebook Page.

Download the full sadhana from here:
http://khenposodargye.org/…/vajrasattva ... tion-pract…/

Chanting Prayers Before and After the Dharma Teaching:
http://khenposodargye.org/about/larung-daily-prayers/
Click here to check your local time for the live teaching:
https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/converter.html
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

jkt
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by jkt » Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:33 am

Thanks for sharing Pero. Very auspicious! :buddha1:

TrimePema
Posts: 161
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by TrimePema » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:47 am

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:15 am
TrimePema wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:12 am
no. it is a single deity vajrasattva practice for purification.
Well that it explains it then...

6 syllable or 100 syllable mantra?
the sadhana is originally for 6 syllable mantra and refers to this mantra as the one of which the 400,000 can be completed with such and such benefits. there is also a section for the 100 syllable but my understanding is that it was added later for inclusivity purposes.

Pero
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Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by Pero » Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:37 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:47 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:15 am
TrimePema wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:12 am
no. it is a single deity vajrasattva practice for purification.
Well that it explains it then...

6 syllable or 100 syllable mantra?
the sadhana is originally for 6 syllable mantra and refers to this mantra as the one of which the 400,000 can be completed with such and such benefits. there is also a section for the 100 syllable but my understanding is that it was added later for inclusivity purposes.
The one available on Khenpo Sodargye's site seems to be the original one and the book has a more elaborate one?

Khenpo today also gave the lung for 35 Buddha's confession practice and Mipham's Vajrasattva. Any idea if the latter is the one available on Lotsawa House?
Although many individuals in this age appear to be merely indulging their worldly desires, one does not have the capacity to judge them, so it is best to train in pure vision.
- Shabkar

TrimePema
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Joined: Fri Jan 03, 2014 1:16 am

Re: Empowerments are for life?

Post by TrimePema » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:48 am

Pero wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 2:37 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:47 am
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:15 am
Well that it explains it then...

6 syllable or 100 syllable mantra?
the sadhana is originally for 6 syllable mantra and refers to this mantra as the one of which the 400,000 can be completed with such and such benefits. there is also a section for the 100 syllable but my understanding is that it was added later for inclusivity purposes.
The one available on Khenpo Sodargye's site seems to be the original one and the book has a more elaborate one?

Khenpo today also gave the lung for 35 Buddha's confession practice and Mipham's Vajrasattva. Any idea if the latter is the one available on Lotsawa House?
The one I have is the same as the one on the site but it also has the 100 syllable mantra as optional (seven recitations before the 6 syllable recitations). No comment on anything else, but maybe it's this one...
https://www.lotsawahouse.org/tibetan-ma ... ajrasattva

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