Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

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mddrill
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Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by mddrill » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:46 pm

Are they like levels where you progress one by one and only go to the next when your guru says you're ready? If so, how long do people typically spend on each yana?

smcj
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by smcj » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:56 pm

You shouldn’t look at it from the perspective of this lifetime only. Somebody might have spent their last five lifetimes on the lower eight, so they can go straight to Ati Yoga. It looks like they skipped the lower eight, but they really didn’t. Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

pemachophel
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by pemachophel » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:24 pm

"Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it."

Exactly because we don't usually know what we accomplished or didn't accomplish in past lives, IMO, good reason to recapitulate from the beginning each lifetime. If one practices any lam-rim (graduated) approach to the Vajrayana Dharma, be it Nyingma or Sarma, one will typically recapitulate the yanas when doing ngon-dro (although Tibetan Buddhist practitioners these days mostly only focus on the three inner tantric yanas, i.e., the Vajrayana, in terms of the six tantric yanas).

Bottom line, you should do what your Guru tells you to do in the order specified. If you do not have a Guru, then you can't practice any of the six tantric yanas in any case.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

mddrill
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by mddrill » Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:32 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:24 pm
"Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it."

Exactly because we don't usually know what we accomplished or didn't accomplish in past lives, IMO, good reason to recapitulate from the beginning each lifetime. If one practices any lam-rim (graduated) approach to the Vajrayana Dharma, be it Nyingma or Sarma, one will typically recapitulate the yanas when doing ngon-dro (although Tibetan Buddhist practitioners these days mostly only focus on the three inner tantric yanas, i.e., the Vajrayana, in terms of the six tantric yanas).

Bottom line, you should do what your Guru tells you to do in the order specified. If you do not have a Guru, then you can't practice any of the six tantric yanas in any case.
Post by smcj » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:56 pm
You shouldn’t look at it from the perspective of this lifetime only. Somebody might have spent their last five lifetimes on the lower eight, so they can go straight to Ati Yoga. It looks like they skipped the lower eight, but they really didn’t. Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it.
It sounds like this isn't a good path for someone who's not convinced of rebirth, is that true?

mddrill
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by mddrill » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:51 am

mddrill wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:32 pm
pemachophel wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:24 pm
"Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it."

Exactly because we don't usually know what we accomplished or didn't accomplish in past lives, IMO, good reason to recapitulate from the beginning each lifetime. If one practices any lam-rim (graduated) approach to the Vajrayana Dharma, be it Nyingma or Sarma, one will typically recapitulate the yanas when doing ngon-dro (although Tibetan Buddhist practitioners these days mostly only focus on the three inner tantric yanas, i.e., the Vajrayana, in terms of the six tantric yanas).

Bottom line, you should do what your Guru tells you to do in the order specified. If you do not have a Guru, then you can't practice any of the six tantric yanas in any case.
Post by smcj » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:56 pm
You shouldn’t look at it from the perspective of this lifetime only. Somebody might have spent their last five lifetimes on the lower eight, so they can go straight to Ati Yoga. It looks like they skipped the lower eight, but they really didn’t. Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it.
It sounds like this isn't a good path for someone who's not convinced of rebirth, is that true?
To clarify, it sounds like you're saying that it will take several lifetimes to progress to Dzogchen. Is that true?

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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by Karma_Yeshe » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:31 am

In a post-ngöndro nyingma-saddhana, you usually do all nine yanas combined.

smcj
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by smcj » Fri Feb 15, 2019 1:45 am

To clarify, it sounds like you're saying that it will take several lifetimes to progress to Dzogchen. Is that true?
In the Vajrayana it is said that with great effort Buddhahood can be accomplished in a single lifetime. So the short answer is no.

But effectively as far as this life goes, maybe and maybe not. As I said, you may have already spent many lifetimes doing this. I don’t know. You don’t know. But if you have, once you start you should progress rapidly up to the point where you left off.
1. No traditional Buddhist sect, Tibetan or otherwise, considers deities to be fictional. (DW post/Seeker242)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post/by ?)
4. Shentong] is the completely pure system that,
Through mainly teaching the luminous aspect of the mind, holds that the fruitions--kayas and wisdoms--exist on their own accord. (Karmapa XIII)

pemachophel
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by pemachophel » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:59 pm

" I don’t know. You don’t know. But if you have, once you start you should progress rapidly up to the point where you left off."

Quite true, but your Teacher will/should know this and He or She will tell you where to begin and what to do. No Dzogchen without a Teacher and, if you have a Teacher and are following Them correctly, you do what the Teacher says in the order They tell you.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

tingdzin
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by tingdzin » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:32 am

The nine yanas are merely a convenient classification of possible approaches from the most general to the most profound. They do not (or originally were not meant to) indicate a "stages of the path" sort of intent at all. Sorry about the untimely response.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:18 am

tingdzin wrote:
Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:32 am
The nine yanas are merely a convenient classification of possible approaches from the most general to the most profound. They do not (or originally were not meant to) indicate a "stages of the path" sort of intent at all. Sorry about the untimely response.
This is also what I have been taught about the Three Yana setup, they are not meant as a chronology, and plenty of us will jump around between them, occupy more than one at once, etc. Seems especially true with the Nine Yanas where you have different levels of tantra, some of which are way more commonly practiced than others.
His welcoming
& rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
Knowing the dustless, sorrowless state,
he discerns rightly,
has gone, beyond becoming,
to the Further Shore.

-Lokavipatti Sutta

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Matt J
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by Matt J » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:06 pm

I don’t know about that. Vajrayana teachers range from very traditional to very non-traditional. I don’t think rebirth is a theoretical belief to be adopted. There are reasons why Buddhists have talked about it for millennia. It makes more sense once you get going with practice.
mddrill wrote: It sounds like this isn't a good path for someone who's not convinced of rebirth, is that true?
"The essence of meditation practice is to let go of all your expectations about meditation. All the qualities of your natural mind -- peace, openness, relaxation, and clarity -- are present in your mind just as it is. You don't have to do anything different. You don't have to shift or change your awareness. All you have to do while observing your mind is to recognize the qualities it already has."
--- Yongey Mingyur Rinpoche

Seeker12
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by Seeker12 » Wed Mar 06, 2019 4:38 pm

mddrill wrote:
Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:46 pm
Are they like levels where you progress one by one and only go to the next when your guru says you're ready? If so, how long do people typically spend on each yana?
Generally I think a way to think about it is sort of like math - in order to properly understand quantum physics, you need to be able to know what numbers are, you need to be able to count, you need to know arithmetic, you need to know algebra, calculus, etc. It is not possible to be able to do quantum physics level math without those foundations - it is not possible because those foundations are part of what quantum physics is.

With that said, if someone comes to a university and already knows how to do everything up through calculus, etc, perhaps that person could jump right into quantum physics - they wouldn't need to start with counting just because that university didn't teach them counting.

In general, when it comes to Buddhism, work may have been done in previous lives so that one naturally has a very quick grasp of the foundations of ati yoga, and it's said in rare cases it can be basically an instantaneous realization/liberation. But that, generally, would be explained as being the result of having basically established the foundations in previous lives, rather than skipping them - that would be like a person who already knows up through advanced calculus and then is exposed to quantum physics.

It is not possible, however, to 'skip' any step, just as it's not possible to do quantum physics without understanding numbers. So if we are at a point where, to use the analogy, we don't really have a solid grasp of algebra, it is most appropriate for us to learn algebra.

A good guide/guru is able to see where the disciple is and know what is appropriate for them, with the ultimate goal being Buddhahood.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra Shastra

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