Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

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mddrill
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Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by mddrill »

Are they like levels where you progress one by one and only go to the next when your guru says you're ready? If so, how long do people typically spend on each yana?
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

You shouldn’t look at it from the perspective of this lifetime only. Somebody might have spent their last five lifetimes on the lower eight, so they can go straight to Ati Yoga. It looks like they skipped the lower eight, but they really didn’t. Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by pemachophel »

"Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it."

Exactly because we don't usually know what we accomplished or didn't accomplish in past lives, IMO, good reason to recapitulate from the beginning each lifetime. If one practices any lam-rim (graduated) approach to the Vajrayana Dharma, be it Nyingma or Sarma, one will typically recapitulate the yanas when doing ngon-dro (although Tibetan Buddhist practitioners these days mostly only focus on the three inner tantric yanas, i.e., the Vajrayana, in terms of the six tantric yanas).

Bottom line, you should do what your Guru tells you to do in the order specified. If you do not have a Guru, then you can't practice any of the six tantric yanas in any case.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
mddrill
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by mddrill »

pemachophel wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:24 pm "Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it."

Exactly because we don't usually know what we accomplished or didn't accomplish in past lives, IMO, good reason to recapitulate from the beginning each lifetime. If one practices any lam-rim (graduated) approach to the Vajrayana Dharma, be it Nyingma or Sarma, one will typically recapitulate the yanas when doing ngon-dro (although Tibetan Buddhist practitioners these days mostly only focus on the three inner tantric yanas, i.e., the Vajrayana, in terms of the six tantric yanas).

Bottom line, you should do what your Guru tells you to do in the order specified. If you do not have a Guru, then you can't practice any of the six tantric yanas in any case.
Post by smcj » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:56 pm
You shouldn’t look at it from the perspective of this lifetime only. Somebody might have spent their last five lifetimes on the lower eight, so they can go straight to Ati Yoga. It looks like they skipped the lower eight, but they really didn’t. Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it.
It sounds like this isn't a good path for someone who's not convinced of rebirth, is that true?
mddrill
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by mddrill »

mddrill wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 11:32 pm
pemachophel wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:24 pm "Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it."

Exactly because we don't usually know what we accomplished or didn't accomplish in past lives, IMO, good reason to recapitulate from the beginning each lifetime. If one practices any lam-rim (graduated) approach to the Vajrayana Dharma, be it Nyingma or Sarma, one will typically recapitulate the yanas when doing ngon-dro (although Tibetan Buddhist practitioners these days mostly only focus on the three inner tantric yanas, i.e., the Vajrayana, in terms of the six tantric yanas).

Bottom line, you should do what your Guru tells you to do in the order specified. If you do not have a Guru, then you can't practice any of the six tantric yanas in any case.
Post by smcj » Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:56 pm
You shouldn’t look at it from the perspective of this lifetime only. Somebody might have spent their last five lifetimes on the lower eight, so they can go straight to Ati Yoga. It looks like they skipped the lower eight, but they really didn’t. Because you’re not omniscient you just can’t see it.
It sounds like this isn't a good path for someone who's not convinced of rebirth, is that true?
To clarify, it sounds like you're saying that it will take several lifetimes to progress to Dzogchen. Is that true?
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Karma_Yeshe
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by Karma_Yeshe »

In a post-ngöndro nyingma-saddhana, you usually do all nine yanas combined.
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by Schrödinger’s Yidam »

To clarify, it sounds like you're saying that it will take several lifetimes to progress to Dzogchen. Is that true?
In the Vajrayana it is said that with great effort Buddhahood can be accomplished in a single lifetime. So the short answer is no.

But effectively as far as this life goes, maybe and maybe not. As I said, you may have already spent many lifetimes doing this. I don’t know. You don’t know. But if you have, once you start you should progress rapidly up to the point where you left off.
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by pemachophel »

" I don’t know. You don’t know. But if you have, once you start you should progress rapidly up to the point where you left off."

Quite true, but your Teacher will/should know this and He or She will tell you where to begin and what to do. No Dzogchen without a Teacher and, if you have a Teacher and are following Them correctly, you do what the Teacher says in the order They tell you.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
tingdzin
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by tingdzin »

The nine yanas are merely a convenient classification of possible approaches from the most general to the most profound. They do not (or originally were not meant to) indicate a "stages of the path" sort of intent at all. Sorry about the untimely response.
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by Johnny Dangerous »

tingdzin wrote: Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:32 am The nine yanas are merely a convenient classification of possible approaches from the most general to the most profound. They do not (or originally were not meant to) indicate a "stages of the path" sort of intent at all. Sorry about the untimely response.
This is also what I have been taught about the Three Yana setup, they are not meant as a chronology, and plenty of us will jump around between them, occupy more than one at once, etc. Seems especially true with the Nine Yanas where you have different levels of tantra, some of which are way more commonly practiced than others.
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Matt J
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by Matt J »

I don’t know about that. Vajrayana teachers range from very traditional to very non-traditional. I don’t think rebirth is a theoretical belief to be adopted. There are reasons why Buddhists have talked about it for millennia. It makes more sense once you get going with practice.
mddrill wrote: It sounds like this isn't a good path for someone who's not convinced of rebirth, is that true?
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Re: Do the nine yanas have to be progressed in order?

Post by ThreeVows »

mddrill wrote: Thu Feb 14, 2019 2:46 pm Are they like levels where you progress one by one and only go to the next when your guru says you're ready? If so, how long do people typically spend on each yana?
Generally I think a way to think about it is sort of like math - in order to properly understand quantum physics, you need to be able to know what numbers are, you need to be able to count, you need to know arithmetic, you need to know algebra, calculus, etc. It is not possible to be able to do quantum physics level math without those foundations - it is not possible because those foundations are part of what quantum physics is.

With that said, if someone comes to a university and already knows how to do everything up through calculus, etc, perhaps that person could jump right into quantum physics - they wouldn't need to start with counting just because that university didn't teach them counting.

In general, when it comes to Buddhism, work may have been done in previous lives so that one naturally has a very quick grasp of the foundations of ati yoga, and it's said in rare cases it can be basically an instantaneous realization/liberation. But that, generally, would be explained as being the result of having basically established the foundations in previous lives, rather than skipping them - that would be like a person who already knows up through advanced calculus and then is exposed to quantum physics.

It is not possible, however, to 'skip' any step, just as it's not possible to do quantum physics without understanding numbers. So if we are at a point where, to use the analogy, we don't really have a solid grasp of algebra, it is most appropriate for us to learn algebra.

A good guide/guru is able to see where the disciple is and know what is appropriate for them, with the ultimate goal being Buddhahood.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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