Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

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Thapke Terdzo
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Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Thapke Terdzo » Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:57 pm

Hello! First post here. Just curious about Ngondro. I am preparing to begin Kagyu Ngondro. I am curious if once I compete that will I be able to receive Dzogchen transmissions or will I need to complete a separate Ngondro? Or will it depend on the teacher? Most teachers I will most likely be receiving transmissions from (Khandro Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Mingyur Rinpoche) are all lineage holders of both Kagyu/Nyingma. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! - Thapke

florin
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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by florin » Sun Mar 24, 2019 3:09 am

Thapke Terdzo wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:57 pm
Hello! First post here. Just curious about Ngondro. I am preparing to begin Kagyu Ngondro. I am curious if once I compete that will I be able to receive Dzogchen transmissions or will I need to complete a separate Ngondro? Or will it depend on the teacher? Most teachers I will most likely be receiving transmissions from (Khandro Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Mingyur Rinpoche) are all lineage holders of both Kagyu/Nyingma. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! - Thapke
The receiving of dzogchen introduction is not dependent on a completion of a ngondro.
The capacity to understand and connect with that transmission is however dependent on your capacity. To improve that capacity we may do ngondros that are specific to dzogchen.
“The path of the supreme yoga it is not the path of accomplished sages of the past. Whoever enters onto the path of the sages of the past will end up gripped by the sicknesses of the path - meditation, attachment, and exertion.”Thig le drug pa.

“Everything of the universe of saṃsāra and nirvāṇa arises as the enlightened energy of the one self-perfected Natural Presence. But these teachers still mistakenly teach that disciples should fabricate enlightenment by applying discipline, renunciation, interruption, purification and transformation”.

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by heart » Sun Mar 24, 2019 9:09 am

Thapke Terdzo wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:57 pm
Hello! First post here. Just curious about Ngondro. I am preparing to begin Kagyu Ngondro. I am curious if once I compete that will I be able to receive Dzogchen transmissions or will I need to complete a separate Ngondro? Or will it depend on the teacher? Most teachers I will most likely be receiving transmissions from (Khandro Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Mingyur Rinpoche) are all lineage holders of both Kagyu/Nyingma. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! - Thapke
I did a Karma Kagyu Ngondro and received Dzogchen and Mahamudra teachings both before, during and after from Chökyi Nyima Rinpoche and also Tsoknyi Rinpoche and Mingyur Rinpoche. In the context of these teachers you don't really do Ngondro to achieve some level of teaching you do it to accumulate merit and wisdom which is important for you in order to achieve the circumstances necessary for realisation. So you do Ngondro for you, not for them. You can also practice Sadhana's and do Dzogchen/Mahamudra while doing Ngondro. Sadhana's depend on if you have time (and transmission of course) but Dzogchen/Mahmudra can be applied at any time during any practice.
That said there are many different Nyingma Ngondro and I recently finished one of them. Most serious long time students I know have done several different Ngondros. Then there are the particular Dzogchen Ngondro mentioned by Florin above, but they are not normally accumulated by number but in retreat because you need to do them intensely until you really are exhausted.
But, in Vajrayana, the most important thing is not to choose a school or a practice it is actually to find a qualified approachable teacher that inspires you and take it from there.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

PeterC
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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by PeterC » Sun Mar 24, 2019 11:30 am

Thapke Terdzo wrote:
Sat Mar 23, 2019 11:57 pm
Hello! First post here. Just curious about Ngondro. I am preparing to begin Kagyu Ngondro. I am curious if once I compete that will I be able to receive Dzogchen transmissions or will I need to complete a separate Ngondro? Or will it depend on the teacher? Most teachers I will most likely be receiving transmissions from (Khandro Rinpoche, Tsoknyi Rinpoche, Mingyur Rinpoche) are all lineage holders of both Kagyu/Nyingma. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks! - Thapke
Ngondros are usually specific to a cycle of teachings, which will also include three roots, dzogchen and various other ancillary practices (protectors, long life, etc.). In a Kagyu format the curriculum might then go on to mahamudra, yidam, etc - the exact structure will depend on which lineage and which teacher. It’s generally worth having a teacher tell you what to do and when as regards preliminary practices, for this reason. Most people end up doing multiple different ngondros as they practice multiple different cycles. Most also begin by thinking it’s a necessary evil they need to get through quickly, and seeing that opinion change as they progress with it.

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by pemachophel » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:01 pm

"The receiving of dzogchen introduction is not dependent on a completion of a ngondro."

Florin, not 100% correct. It depends on the Teacher. Many Teachers will not teach Dzogchen without completion of ngondro (or at least completion of some percentage of ngondro and the understanding that the student is working hard to complete it). Actually, teaching Dzogchen to a student without that student having completed ngondro is a minority position in my experience. So your opinion is correct in terms of some Teachers and incorrect in terms of many others.

As PeterC stated, Dzogchen is typically taught as the final teaching of a particular cycle of terma, be that Longchen Nyingthig, Dudjom Tersar, Chokling Tersar, etc., etc. In that case, it is usually a requirement that the student have completed the ngondro of that terma cycle. However, if a student has completed one full ngondro from some other cycle, the Teacher may only require the student to do 10% of the ngondro of the present cycle or waive this requirement altogether.

There are also shorter and longer ngondro depending on the cycle. Further, while some Teachers may only require the standard five 100,000s, other Teachers/other specific lineages of some terma cycles may require many more 100,000 of some of the five accumulations. For instance, in some Longchen Nyingthig lineages, it is common to be required to do 1,000,000 long Vajrasattvas and 10 million Vajra Gurus and maybe two full sets of long prostrations.

Again as PeterC said, IME, ngondro is not an obstacle to get past. It is a foundation for subsequent practice and accomplishment. So, while doing a long, extensive ngondro may seem like a very slow approach, it may actually turn out to be the swiftest of paths in the long run.

There are also Dzogchen teachings that are not linked to a particular terma cycle. In those cases, it's up to the Teacher to decide what He or She is willing to teach to what student.

Good luck & best wishes
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by zenman » Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:45 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:01 pm
"The receiving of dzogchen introduction is not dependent on a completion of a ngondro."

Actually, teaching Dzogchen to a student without that student having completed ngondro is a minority position in my experience. So your opinion is correct in terms of some Teachers and incorrect in terms of many others.

There are also shorter and longer ngondro depending on the cycle. Further, while some Teachers may only require the standard five 100,000s, other Teachers/other specific lineages of some terma cycles may require many more 100,000 of some of the five accumulations. For instance, in some Longchen Nyingthig lineages, it is common to be required to do 1,000,000 long Vajrasattvas and 10 million Vajra Gurus and maybe two full sets of long prostrations.
Yeah, often teachers require ngondro.

10 mil Vajra Gurus as a preliminary... I wonder if one has a need for dzogchen instructions after that :tongue:

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Grigoris » Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:47 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:01 pm
However, if a student has completed one full ngondro from some other cycle, the Teacher may only require the student to do 10% of the ngondro of the present cycle or waive this requirement altogether.
This is my experience. After finishing the 5X 100,000 in the Karma Kagyu my Dudjom Tersar teacher instructed me to do 5X 10,000.
Again as PeterC said, IME, ngondro is not an obstacle to get past. It is a foundation for subsequent practice and accomplishment. So, while doing a long, extensive ngondro may seem like a very slow approach, it may actually turn out to be the swiftest of paths in the long run.
Ngondro is an awesome "stand alone" practice too.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
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"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Miroku » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:07 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:47 pm
Ngondro is an awesome "stand alone" practice too.
Yes, and with mahamudra/dzogchen instructions it can really work wonders.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by pemachophel » Sun Mar 24, 2019 8:26 pm

Among Nyingmapa, 10 million Vajra Guru mantra are not all that unusual, especially in Longchen Nyingthig coming through Patrul Rinpoche.

It is absolutely 100% possible to meet Guru Rinpoche in the flesh (as much as any of us are "in the flesh").
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:46 am

1,200,000 times seems to be the standard (100,000 times for each syllable of the Vajra Guru Mantra).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:48 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:46 am
1,200,000 times seems to be the standard (100,000 times for each syllable of the Vajra Guru Mantra).
That was the instruction I received as well. My teacher said that you won't be reborn in Samsara if you complete 1,200,000 recitations of this mantra. It's a complete practice in itself.
Last edited by Thomas Amundsen on Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by pemachophel » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:53 pm

At first my Teacher told me to say the VG mantra 100,000. When I did, He said great but the real way is to say 1,200,000. When I did, He said great but Patrul Rinpoche's oral lineage (Pa-trul sung-gyud) is 10 million times.

It's said that saying the VG mantra 1,200,000 insures rebirth in Zangdo Palri.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:54 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:53 pm
At first my Teacher told me to say the VG mantra 100,000. When I did, He said great but the real way is to say 1,200,000. When I did, He said great but Patrul Rinpoche's oral lineage (Pa-trul sung-gyud) is 10 million times.

It's said that saying the VG mantra 1,200,000 insures rebirth in Zangdo Palri.
:twothumbsup:

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Sennin » Mon Mar 25, 2019 11:22 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Mon Mar 25, 2019 3:53 pm
At first my Teacher told me to say the VG mantra 100,000. When I did, He said great but the real way is to say 1,200,000. When I did, He said great but Patrul Rinpoche's oral lineage (Pa-trul sung-gyud) is 10 million times.

It's said that saying the VG mantra 1,200,000 insures rebirth in Zangdo Palri.
Is this all with the standard VG mantra or could one use variants like the 'secret name' VG Mantra?
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by pemachophel » Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:54 am

We're talking about ngondro here; so standard Vajra Guru mantra.

However, if one is a Longchen Nyingthig practitioner, one can do another 10 million with Rigdzin Dupa and/or Thigle Gyachen.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

Thapke Terdzo
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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Thapke Terdzo » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:24 am

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. I suppose the primary thing is to let it sink in and not worry about “what’s next.”

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Sennin » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:37 am

pemachophel wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:54 am
We're talking about ngondro here; so standard Vajra Guru mantra.

However, if one is a Longchen Nyingthig practitioner, one can do another 10 million with Rigdzin Dupa and/or Thigle Gyachen.
:thanks:
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by amanitamusc » Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:43 am

Of course Dzogchen can be taught with its own Preliminary Practices.As ChNNR did.
Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche gave pointing out to anybody willing to tune into his webcast.Union of Dzogchen and Mahamudra.

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by Lingpupa » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:33 am

Grigoris wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 7:47 pm
pemachophel wrote:
Sun Mar 24, 2019 5:01 pm
However, if a student has completed one full ngondro from some other cycle, the Teacher may only require the student to do 10% of the ngondro of the present cycle or waive this requirement altogether.
This is my experience. After finishing the 5X 100,000 in the Karma Kagyu my Dudjom Tersar teacher instructed me to do 5X 10,000.
More or less "snap".
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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Re: Kagyu Ngondro/ Dzogchen transmission?

Post by yagmort » Fri Mar 29, 2019 10:02 am

Thapke Terdzo wrote:
Tue Mar 26, 2019 1:24 am
Thank you all for the thoughtful responses. I suppose the primary thing is to let it sink in and not worry about “what’s next.”
indeed. just let it go, relax, and do you practice, setting aside all expectations. your mind will resist though)
my teacher have done 5 cycles of ngondro, while some of his mates have done 15. i can not even imagine that.

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