Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

B0DH15ATTVA
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Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by B0DH15ATTVA » Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:13 pm

Greetings All,

I’ve been lurking the site for a while without posting — and quite enjoying myself doing so — Nice to see a place with such active discussion about the various forms of Mahāyāna practice.

I have a sit-down arranged with a Dudjom Lineage-holder and I figured some of the savvier and well-seasoned folks here might be able to provide some suggestions as to some neat lungs for prayers and mantras, or practices that I could request from Rinpoche. I have the lung for the lujin Ngondro already, which I’m very very grateful for. So far I know I’d like to request The Noble Auspicious Ones and Mipham’s Shower of Blessings sadhana (does that count as a sadhana?) :shrug:

Maybe you all can think of some ones that might be beneficial or that you just think are really cool, or whatever. Looking forward to hearing your replies. Please DM if it’s necessary for your reply.

Thank you all :anjali:

(May it be of benefit)

Sennin
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Sennin » Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:30 pm

B0DH15ATTVA wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 7:13 pm
Greetings All,

I’ve been lurking the site for a while without posting — and quite enjoying myself doing so — Nice to see a place with such active discussion about the various forms of Mahāyāna practice.

I have a sit-down arranged with a Dudjom Lineage-holder and I figured some of the savvier and well-seasoned folks here might be able to provide some suggestions as to some neat lungs for prayers and mantras, or practices that I could request from Rinpoche. I have the lung for the lujin Ngondro already, which I’m very very grateful for. So far I know I’d like to request The Noble Auspicious Ones and Mipham’s Shower of Blessings sadhana (does that count as a sadhana?) :shrug:

Maybe you all can think of some ones that might be beneficial or that you just think are really cool, or whatever. Looking forward to hearing your replies. Please DM if it’s necessary for your reply.

Thank you all :anjali:

(May it be of benefit)
I think those are excellent practices to request, shower of blessings is a guru yoga IIRC; and guru yoga is the essence of the path.
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Jun 13, 2019 4:22 am

The Troma Nagmo cycle is considered to be very important within the Dudjom Tersar tradition. It's quite advanced and has its own ngondro that you typically wouldn't do until after completing a standard ngondro, but you might want to request something related to that, at least for an auspicious dependent origination (rten 'brel). Putri Rekpung is a very powerful cycle with practices to dispel obstacles, again a bit advanced if you haven't started the ngondro. Sometimes Dudjom lamas are very generous, so you never know what they may be willing to give you.

You may know very well already, but it is considered to be auspicious rten 'brel to make an offering after you receive transmissions from the lama.

B0DH15ATTVA
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by B0DH15ATTVA » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:22 am

Hi Thomas,

What type of offering would be most appropriate? I was already planning on offering a khata, should there be a monetary offering as well; or maybe something else?

I had started the ngondro and gotten quite into it then lapsed on my discipline. That said the ngondro definitely “did some things” for me, ha ha.

I’m not sure what would be appropriate to ask for in such a case as mine. I’d love to start the three-roots, but would like to do Vajrakilaya first off. You think I could ask for Vajrakilaya in my position?

Can you think of any Manjushri practice/prayer/sadhana that would be appropriate for me to request?

Thank you all for humoring a newbie.

B0DH15ATTVA
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by B0DH15ATTVA » Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:43 am

Sennin wrote:
Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:30 pm
I think those are excellent practices to request, shower of blessings is a guru yoga IIRC; and guru yoga is the essence of the path.
Thanks Sennin! Maybe instead of asking for Shower of Blessings I could ask Rinpoche to compose an unelaborated Guru Yoga for himself, do people do that?

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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by pemachophel » Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm

Don't ask for anything.

Apologize!

Apologize for having received ngondro and then not completed it.

If you have to "ask for something," then ask the Teacher for a pith instruction on the "Four Thoughts Which Turn the Mind" and any advice on how to complete what you've begun. Asking for Three Root and Yidam sadhanas before finishing ngondro is inappropriate. If you ask for Shower of Blessings, then commit to three things:

1. Finishing ngondro
2. Saying 100,000 Seven-line Prayers
3. Offering tshog every 10th day

Just my two cents. Sorry if this isn't what you were looking for.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Sennin » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:15 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Asking for Three Root and Yidam sadhanas before finishing ngondro is inappropriate.

That's up to the Lama's judgement that one is asking.

Just my two cents.
"One should always recite mantra, purifying the body."
--Cakrasaṃvara Tantra

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:37 am

B0DH15ATTVA wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 4:22 am
Hi Thomas,

What type of offering would be most appropriate? I was already planning on offering a khata, should there be a monetary offering as well; or maybe something else?
A monetary offering is probably the safest option if you don't know the lama well and what the lama likes. Offering a khata is kind of more for yourself than for the lama, since they give it back to you. In reality it's more like asking for a blessing, I think. I mean, you should offer the khata as well. But without offering an actual gift, it's not exactly an act of generosity, IMO.

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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:50 am

Sennin wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:15 pm
pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Asking for Three Root and Yidam sadhanas before finishing ngondro is inappropriate.

That's up to the Lama's judgement that one is asking.

Just my two cents.
Even if it is inappropriate, it's not like the lama is going to punish you or something. Worst case, it will be a learning experience.

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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by madhusudan » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:40 am

Sorry if this question is a bit off topic, but how can we do tsok alone? I'm living abroad in a Mahayana country. I'm pretty sure I have lung for Shower of Blessings, since the Lama gave lung before I left for the common texts of the center along with ngondro,which I requested. Thanks.

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Don't ask for anything.

Apologize!

Apologize for having received ngondro and then not completed it.

If you have to "ask for something," then ask the Teacher for a pith instruction on the "Four Thoughts Which Turn the Mind" and any advice on how to complete what you've begun. Asking for Three Root and Yidam sadhanas before finishing ngondro is inappropriate. If you ask for Shower of Blessings, then commit to three things:

1. Finishing ngondro
2. Saying 100,000 Seven-line Prayers
3. Offering tshog every 10th day

Just my two cents. Sorry if this isn't what you were looking for.

B0DH15ATTVA
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by B0DH15ATTVA » Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:09 am

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Don't ask for anything.

Apologize!

Apologize for having received ngondro and then not completed it.

If you have to "ask for something," then ask the Teacher for a pith instruction on the "Four Thoughts Which Turn the Mind" and any advice on how to complete what you've begun. Asking for Three Root and Yidam sadhanas before finishing ngondro is inappropriate. If you ask for Shower of Blessings, then commit to three things:

1. Finishing ngondro
2. Saying 100,000 Seven-line Prayers
3. Offering tshog every 10th day

Just my two cents. Sorry if this isn't what you were looking for.
Thank you, Pemachophel-la. Something tells me this is the right response, I should note that the lama from whom I received the lujin ngondro lung, is a different lama. Nevertheless, I thank you for helping me put my head on straight. Now that I think more on it, the fact that I didn’t complete the ngondro makes it totally inappropriate to ask for something with major practice commitments.

Of course, since I plan on formally asking to be this Rinpoche’s student I will just trust in what he tells me is best for me to do.

Thank you again, maybe not what “I” wanted. But definitely what I needed!

:anjali:

Simon E.
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Simon E. » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:37 am

Ask for blessings for fresh impetus to finish the ngondro.

:namaste:
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

pema tsultrim
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by pema tsultrim » Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:59 pm

madhusudan wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:40 am
Sorry if this question is a bit off topic, but how can we do tsok alone? I'm living abroad in a Mahayana country. I'm pretty sure I have lung for Shower of Blessings, since the Lama gave lung before I left for the common texts of the center along with ngondro,which I requested. Thanks.

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Don't ask for anything.

Apologize!

Apologize for having received ngondro and then not completed it.

If you have to "ask for something," then ask the Teacher for a pith instruction on the "Four Thoughts Which Turn the Mind" and any advice on how to complete what you've begun. Asking for Three Root and Yidam sadhanas before finishing ngondro is inappropriate. If you ask for Shower of Blessings, then commit to three things:

1. Finishing ngondro
2. Saying 100,000 Seven-line Prayers
3. Offering tshog every 10th day

Just my two cents. Sorry if this isn't what you were looking for.
You can just do the tsok. Obviously if you can find other Vajrayana practitioners to join you, ideally both yogis and yoginis, this is best, but better to do it than not do it. SoB is so unelaborate that you could pretty much do it anywhere. Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche has said on a few occasions that you don't even need to have a whole lot of substances if you can't manage it; some "biscuits and tea" is sufficient if your funds are tight. He has even said in wangs/teachings I was at, that worst case scenario, to maintain samaya, feed a female on the 25th day. Not necessarily every lama's advice, and if others have a different opinion, please share...

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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by pemachophel » Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:04 pm

As stated above, of course you can do tshog alone. Tshog means "assembly," but only one of those assemblies is the assembly of participants. It also means the assembly of Teachers and Deities and the assembly of offerings -- outer, inner, and secret.

That being said, if you have received Shower of Blessings and its associated tshog liturgy, it would probably be best to go to a Lama Who holds this practice and get instructions in how to properly do a tshog. This is something that does, IME, need some teaching and experience. Or you could attend several Shower of Blessing tshogs at some local center and note carefully exactly how the offerings are laid out, what the offerings are, when the offerings are either placed on the altar or taken out of the shrine-room, etc. Shower of Blessings is one of the shortest and easiest of tshogs which is why it is so popular.

Also please note, when doing Shower of Blessing tshogs, most Lamas add at least two other liturgies or practices: some sort of Protectors prayers and a shakpa/confession. These come between the sadhana and the tshog proper. Some Lamas will also add a fulfillment liturgy after the shakpa. (My Teacher, Lama Chodrak, added Riwo Sangchod before Protectors prayers as well.) Another prayer that is commonly added at this point is a condensed tshog which is then counted several, 100, or hundreds of times, such as Jigme Ling's condensed tshog or the Dudjom Ying-kyi Ban-dar. There are also commonly used condensed tshogs by Tsasum Lingpa and Chatral Rinpoche. It is also common to add some sort of prayer (like Ho La-ma Pa-wo Chen-po Gong-su-sol...) when actually offering the amrit and the plate of offerings to the Guru. After the Guru has received the tshog, the prayers Sam-pa Nyur-drub-ma and Du-sum Sang-gay are commonly said.

Because this may seem like a lot, it's probably best to get all this from a Teacher or learn it in a group or by participating in a group. However, I can't stress enough the importance of offering tshog on a monthly or bi-montly basis, i.e., the 10th and 25th lunar days. (When in retreat, we offer tshog every single day!)
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:36 pm

pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Don't ask for anything.

Apologize!

Apologize for having received ngondro and then not completed it.
I'm not sure why one would feel the need to apologize for this. In not completing the ngondro, one is only hurting oneself. It doesn't hurt the lama one bit. The lama is not our daddy or our boss or someone to make us feel small and ashamed. He's a compassionate and wise guide on the path, and he'd want us to get over the guilt and feelings of not being worthy that many Westerners are plagued with, and which can stall or burn out a practice like few other things. I favor a call to giving rise to joy and gratefulness for one's great fortune in meeting such an incredible one as our lama, and the path, and reigniting fierce compassion for sentient beings and contemplating the 4 thoughts, and then getting back to work on the ngondro. And definitely asking for tsog transmission if one hadn't already been received.

I also favor an extremely unelaborate approach to doing tsog solo at home, unless one is the type who loves adding lots of additional elements and being extra thorough. One could offer tsog with literally no more than a few very short mantras, and if it's from one's heart then it would be absolutely complete. I feel it's best to make it simple at first, and as one grows more comfortable and feels more and more devotion and appreciation naturally, through receiving the blessings and experiences on the path, one can add more and more from a place of wanting to, not religious obligation and perfectionist ideals that say if we don't make a tsog 3 or 4 hours long with 50 pages of additional prayers and elaborations on the offerings then it's shameful laziness and lack of effort. What's important is that what one does is done correctly, sincerely, and mindfully.

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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by pemachophel » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:42 pm

Pema-la,

Actually, in terms of Vajrayana, it does hurt the Lama if He or She transmits a practice and the recipient doesn't do it. It's not just a wash, a mulligan, a do-over. (I'm not talking about Hinayana or Mahayana here.) In transmitting a Tantrayana or Vajrayana practice, there is an implied promise on the part of the student to practice the practice. Why else would the student ask for the practice and why else would the Teacher transmit the practice? That means there is a samaya. This is why it's dangerous to be a Vajrayana Teacher. If a Teacher is hugely Realized, maybe the effect of the broken samaya is negligible, but even the great 16th Karmapa said He had made a mistake giving certain empowerments to Westerners who then did not do the practices. Some Kagyud Lamas have pointed to that as one possible cause of the 16th's early demise.

Long, short, elaborate, unelaborate, or extremely unelaborate, of course, in Nyingma we have all possibilities depending on Realization, inclination, and circumstances. I was just describing the most common way to do Shower of Blessings in my experience in both Asia and the West. Depending on Realization and circumstances, we can just say "GA-NA TSA-KRA PU-TSA HO" and be done with it. However, I'd also remind you of Ekadzati's remonstrance to Kunkhyen Longchen Rabjampa.
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Pema Rigdzin » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:10 am

pemachophel wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:42 pm
Pema-la,

Actually, in terms of Vajrayana, it does hurt the Lama if He or She transmits a practice and the recipient doesn't do it. It's not just a wash, a mulligan, a do-over. (I'm not talking about Hinayana or Mahayana here.) In transmitting a Tantrayana or Vajrayana practice, there is an implied promise on the part of the student to practice the practice. Why else would the student ask for the practice and why else would the Teacher transmit the practice? That means there is a samaya. This is why it's dangerous to be a Vajrayana Teacher. If a Teacher is hugely Realized, maybe the effect of the broken samaya is negligible, but even the great 16th Karmapa said He had made a mistake giving certain empowerments to Westerners who then did not do the practices. Some Kagyud Lamas have pointed to that as one possible cause of the 16th's early demise.
Pema Chophel-la,

Lamas transmit countless empowerments and transmissions. Many Nyingmapas have received the whole Dudjom Tersar, Longchen Nyingtig, and other cycles, plus the Rinchen Terdzod and so on. Most practitioners receive numerous empowerments they'll never go on to practice, even though they have a diligent daily practice and do what retreat time they can. It's impossible to practice all the practices we've received empowerment & transmission for. The tantras say one must keep the HYT samayas, but they explain that for one who keeps the samayas but doesn't meditate, buddhahood will be attained in 16 lifetimes. The only time not doing a specific practice is a samaya violation is if the lama gives a practice commitment with that transmission, such as "you must do X amount of mantras for this practice per day/in your lifetime." So if our friend here asked received empowerment from a lama and then he asked his guru for the ngondro transmission, and the lama agreed to give it and then said, "now, you must complete this practice before moving on to any other practices," then yes, that is a samaya commitment. But if he simply felt attracted to doing ngondro and thus asked of his own accord, the lama gave it, but left it up to the student to complete it or not, then the student has a choice. Of course it's simply a fact, though, that few lamas are going to be willing to give certain important transmissions and guiding one in a more serious, advanced way if one hasn't completed the ngondro accumulations.

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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Tata1 » Sun Jun 16, 2019 1:16 am

Sennin wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:15 pm
pemachophel wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:55 pm
Asking for Three Root and Yidam sadhanas before finishing ngondro is inappropriate.

That's up to the Lama's judgement that one is asking.

Just my two cents.
I agree. Its up to the lama. Usually teachers teach acording to mental dispositions so you never know.

For example i know a guy who receive instructions for retreats really early off in his dharma begginnings from dudjom rimpoche. Even tho dudjom usually gave a more gradual approach of ngondro, three roots ...etc he just gave him trekchod instructions and some simple anuyoga practices and sent him off to practice, wich he did for a long time.


So, like i said. You never know.

Discuss this things with the teacher. That is why you are having the interview to begin with. Dont be afraid to ask, specially the things you are asking here.

Also if you live somewhere where is not that common to met lamas from this linage is not that bad of an idea to ask for lungs that you want to practice in the future

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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Miroku » Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:24 pm

Not a dudjom person, but I'd suggest finishing ngöndro and if you want some special practice, I'd ask for some simple guruyoga practice. That way you really have enough to practice for lifetimes. But I get you, I struggle with my ngöndro as well, however it's a joyful struggle. :D
A boat delivers you to the other riverbank.
A needle stitches up your clothes.
A horse takes you where you want to go.
Bodhicitta will bring you to Buddhahood.
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Re: Sit-down with Dudjom Lineage Lama

Post by Simon E. » Sun Jun 16, 2019 2:08 pm

Miroku wrote:
Sun Jun 16, 2019 12:24 pm
Not a dudjom person, but I'd suggest finishing ngöndro and if you want some special practice, I'd ask for some simple guruyoga practice. That way you really have enough to practice for lifetimes. But I get you, I struggle with my ngöndro as well, however it's a joyful struggle. :D
This.. :thumbsup:
I know nothing. This is not false modesty.

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