Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

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Cinnabar
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Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by Cinnabar » Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:51 pm

Disclaimer: I'm not trying to engage in practice without the guidance of a teacher. Nor am I trying to engage in Vajrayana practice without the requisite empowerments, transmissions and instructions. And I'm not trying to poach instructions or permissions from people on the internet. I'm just asking a question and will engage in practice like I always have. This just might be useful to have clarified.

I saw in a different thread that receiving the Zhi Tro empowerment allows one to practice some set of other (non Zhi Tro) Nyingma sadhanas.

What is this about?

I've received the empowerment, transmission and instructions on the Zhi Tro, and this was never mentioned.

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:04 pm

Cinnabar wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:51 pm
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to engage in practice without the guidance of a teacher. Nor am I trying to engage in Vajrayana practice without the requisite empowerments, transmissions and instructions. And I'm not trying to poach instructions or permissions from people on the internet. I'm just asking a question and will engage in practice like I always have. This just might be useful to have clarified.

I saw in a different thread that receiving the Zhi Tro empowerment allows one to practice some set of other (non Zhi Tro) Nyingma sadhanas.

What is this about?

I've received the empowerment, transmission and instructions on the Zhi Tro, and this was never mentioned.
I don't think one is allowed to practice the sadhanas. At least my understanding of the matter is that in Nyingma with Zhitro empowerment one does not necessarily need other empowerments for those deities and lung + tri for the sadhanas is enough. But dunno.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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Lingpupa
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by Lingpupa » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:46 am

I've seen it said, too, but not with a proper source. The only source I could find was someone who said, "Lots of people say so." I suspect it's just a misunderstanding.

Many sadhanas, after all, will explain that through that sadhana and mantra all deities are realised and there is no need for any other. It's just hyperbole, a perfectly valid style of expression provided you don't get to literal-minded about it. It's not as popular in Western literature as in some other places, but we still use it a lot: she's fabulous; I literally died laughing; the meal was just perfect; et cetera.

Of course, it's always possible that some "authorised" lama somewhere said this and meant it, but it doesn't follow that tradition generally accepts it.
All the best
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Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by Könchok Thrinley » Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:56 am

Lingpupa wrote:
Thu Aug 15, 2019 9:46 am
I've seen it said, too, but not with a proper source. The only source I could find was someone who said, "Lots of people say so." I suspect it's just a misunderstanding.

Many sadhanas, after all, will explain that through that sadhana and mantra all deities are realised and there is no need for any other. It's just hyperbole, a perfectly valid style of expression provided you don't get to literal-minded about it. It's not as popular in Western literature as in some other places, but we still use it a lot: she's fabulous; I literally died laughing; the meal was just perfect; et cetera.

Of course, it's always possible that some "authorised" lama somewhere said this and meant it, but it doesn't follow that tradition generally accepts it.
I am quite sure it actually is like that. There is a logic behind it because of the different mandalas that are incorporated in shitro (the peaceful and wrathful one) also 100 syllable mantra is supposed to be made of seed syllables of all the 100 deities. So this is the reasoning behind it. It is not just that the deities are realised through this single practice, they are actually practiced in a way as they are present.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche

Formerly known as Miroku.

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treehuggingoctopus
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by treehuggingoctopus » Thu Aug 15, 2019 10:33 am

There seems to be very solid scriptural evidence that the idea that through any HYT sadhana/mantra all deities are realised (and thus there is no need for any other sadhana/mantra practice) is to be read literally, in a way at least, i.e., if you realise a yidam, you realise all yidams: https://buddhaweekly.com/guru-rinpoche- ... dam-deity/

That said, I have heard many teachers (including HE Garchen Rinpoche and LOTR) insist that we only ever need one yidam as our regular practice. Which would be tantamount to a very literal reading of GR's words:
The body, speech, and mind of all deities are manifested by the three kayas in accordance with the perception of those to be tamed. In fact, no matter how they appear, if you practice one you will be practising them all. If you accomplish one you will have accomplished them all.
GR continues:
Although the sugatas manifest as various kinds of families and forms, out of skillful means to tame beings, they are in actuality inseparable, the state of equality. If you were to practice all the Buddhas with this realization of their inseparability, your merit would be most eminent. But if you were to do so while regarding the yidam deities as having different qualities which should be either accepted or rejected, you would be immeasurably obscured.
It would appear, then, that even when it comes to mundane benefits all deities are one, all the differences between yidams are there solely so that the deity can appeal to our personal needs.

How and if it bears upon the notion of a Shitro wang being the all-inclusive-superwang I do not know.
To offer care and affection to sentient beings
In desperate situations who lack protection
Brings just as much merit as the meditation
On emptiness with compassion as its core—
So it has been said by glorious Lord Atisha.

Chatral Sangye Dorje Rinpoche

If you cannot generate an altruistic mind, even extensive retreat will be of not much benefit.
Garchen Triptrul Rinpoche

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PeterC
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by PeterC » Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:45 am

Cinnabar wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:51 pm
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to engage in practice without the guidance of a teacher. Nor am I trying to engage in Vajrayana practice without the requisite empowerments, transmissions and instructions. And I'm not trying to poach instructions or permissions from people on the internet. I'm just asking a question and will engage in practice like I always have. This just might be useful to have clarified.

I saw in a different thread that receiving the Zhi Tro empowerment allows one to practice some set of other (non Zhi Tro) Nyingma sadhanas.

What is this about?

I've received the empowerment, transmission and instructions on the Zhi Tro, and this was never mentioned.
The zhitro empowerment is supposed to confer the ability to practice all the deities gathered into that mandala, no additional empowerment needed, though you need the lung and tri for any individual sadhana you're going to do. However that would apply only to the sadhanas in that lineage, and there are lots of different zhitro empowerments. This does leave open the question, could you receive the zhitro empowerment from terma lineage X and then get the lung for a deity in terma lineage Y and be ok to practice it. I have no idea what any lama's position would be on that question, though I strongly suspect they would all think, that's a really dumb question because who on earth would want to practice in that way.

The whole question of how empowerments are structured - what confers what authorization - is one that I really didn't understand when I started out and I've found the process of having it explained very helpful. But I'm certain it's something we shouldn't get to deep into in a public forum.

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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by TrimePema » Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:40 pm

PeterC wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 6:45 am
Cinnabar wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 6:51 pm
Disclaimer: I'm not trying to engage in practice without the guidance of a teacher. Nor am I trying to engage in Vajrayana practice without the requisite empowerments, transmissions and instructions. And I'm not trying to poach instructions or permissions from people on the internet. I'm just asking a question and will engage in practice like I always have. This just might be useful to have clarified.

I saw in a different thread that receiving the Zhi Tro empowerment allows one to practice some set of other (non Zhi Tro) Nyingma sadhanas.

What is this about?

I've received the empowerment, transmission and instructions on the Zhi Tro, and this was never mentioned.
The zhitro empowerment is supposed to confer the ability to practice all the deities gathered into that mandala, no additional empowerment needed, though you need the lung and tri for any individual sadhana you're going to do. However that would apply only to the sadhanas in that lineage, and there are lots of different zhitro empowerments. This does leave open the question, could you receive the zhitro empowerment from terma lineage X and then get the lung for a deity in terma lineage Y and be ok to practice it. I have no idea what any lama's position would be on that question, though I strongly suspect they would all think, that's a really dumb question because who on earth would want to practice in that way.

The whole question of how empowerments are structured - what confers what authorization - is one that I really didn't understand when I started out and I've found the process of having it explained very helpful. But I'm certain it's something we shouldn't get to deep into in a public forum.
I was told the Karma Lingpa zhitro wang is sufficient for all zhitro practices across all traditions, but I was never told that it was sufficient for all deities in any tradition.

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PeterC
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by PeterC » Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:01 am

TrimePema wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:40 pm
I was told the Karma Lingpa zhitro wang is sufficient for all zhitro practices across all traditions, but I was never told that it was sufficient for all deities in any tradition.
Interesting. Makes sense but then again, it’s hard to imagine how the circumstances would arise where anyone would actually do that. If they wanted to practice zhitro from another terma they would seem out that transmission, and if they’ve received the karma Lingpa zhitro they can in any case practice in that tradition.

TrimePema
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by TrimePema » Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:54 am

PeterC wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:01 am
TrimePema wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:40 pm
I was told the Karma Lingpa zhitro wang is sufficient for all zhitro practices across all traditions, but I was never told that it was sufficient for all deities in any tradition.
Interesting. Makes sense but then again, it’s hard to imagine how the circumstances would arise where anyone would actually do that. If they wanted to practice zhitro from another terma they would seem out that transmission, and if they’ve received the karma Lingpa zhitro they can in any case practice in that tradition.
Really? I think it happens all the time.

Person A attends empowerments but really has no serious practice or lama at all and receives Ka-Ling Zhitro. Then person A finds a lineage 5 years later, let's say that of ChNN. Now person A doesnt need to receive ChNN Zhitro wang in order to receive the meditation instructions of ChNN zhitro and the sadhana lung. The wang is much harder to get than the lung and the tri.

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PeterC
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by PeterC » Fri Nov 08, 2019 7:46 am

TrimePema wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:54 am
PeterC wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 3:01 am
TrimePema wrote:
Wed Nov 06, 2019 3:40 pm
I was told the Karma Lingpa zhitro wang is sufficient for all zhitro practices across all traditions, but I was never told that it was sufficient for all deities in any tradition.
Interesting. Makes sense but then again, it’s hard to imagine how the circumstances would arise where anyone would actually do that. If they wanted to practice zhitro from another terma they would seem out that transmission, and if they’ve received the karma Lingpa zhitro they can in any case practice in that tradition.
Really? I think it happens all the time.

Person A attends empowerments but really has no serious practice or lama at all and receives Ka-Ling Zhitro. Then person A finds a lineage 5 years later, let's say that of ChNN. Now person A doesnt need to receive ChNN Zhitro wang in order to receive the meditation instructions of ChNN zhitro and the sadhana lung. The wang is much harder to get than the lung and the tri.
I don’t know anyone who would do that. All of my dharma friends in real life would either have received the Ka-Ling zhitro wang and practised that, or if they wanted to do a different lineage’s practices they would have sought out the wang for that. But admittedly I don’t have a lot of dharma friends :)

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Josef
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by Josef » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:15 pm

Typically, when one receives a shitro or Vajrasattva empowerment this enables one to receive the lung of other practices in order to do them rather than receiving each empowerment individually. Sarma lamas do not usually follow this.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

TrimePema
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by TrimePema » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:31 pm

Josef wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:15 pm
Typically, when one receives a shitro or Vajrasattva empowerment this enables one to receive the lung of other practices in order to do them rather than receiving each empowerment individually. Sarma lamas do not usually follow this.
That's interesting. Didn't know that! Makes sense. Lord of the ocean of mandalas.

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Josef
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by Josef » Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:36 pm

TrimePema wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:31 pm
Josef wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:15 pm
Typically, when one receives a shitro or Vajrasattva empowerment this enables one to receive the lung of other practices in order to do them rather than receiving each empowerment individually. Sarma lamas do not usually follow this.
That's interesting. Didn't know that! Makes sense. Lord of the ocean of mandalas.
It is unique to Nyingmapas really. Receiving the rigpai tsal wang is usually treated the same way.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

TrimePema
Posts: 366
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by TrimePema » Fri Nov 08, 2019 10:29 pm

Josef wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:36 pm
TrimePema wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:31 pm
Josef wrote:
Fri Nov 08, 2019 9:15 pm
Typically, when one receives a shitro or Vajrasattva empowerment this enables one to receive the lung of other practices in order to do them rather than receiving each empowerment individually. Sarma lamas do not usually follow this.
That's interesting. Didn't know that! Makes sense. Lord of the ocean of mandalas.
It is unique to Nyingmapas really. Receiving the rigpai tsal wang is usually treated the same way.
Makes sense

Yeti
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by Yeti » Thu Nov 28, 2019 9:25 am

One of my teachers was offering teachings on the Kaling Zhi Tro. I asked if I could attend, but I only had the Zhi Tro from the Nyingma Kahma... he said no... as the Zhi Tro from the Nyingma Kahma only had the maha and anu... but no ati section. All Zhi Tro's are not equal.
"People are fond of saying all sorts of things about others behind their backs, mentioning their names again and again. Instead of slandering others in this way, “slander” the yidam: utter his name repeatedly by reciting his mantra all the time." - Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche - Zurchungpa’s Testament - Shambhala Publications

Simon E.
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Re: Zhi Tro Empowerment as a prerequisite?

Post by Simon E. » Thu Nov 28, 2019 10:46 am

But always remember..every valley a Lama,every Lama a Dharma. :smile:
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”

Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.

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