Liberation through six senses

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bhava
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Liberation through six senses

Post by bhava » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:02 pm

Profound explanation of Tulku Rinpoche Pema Wangyal
Seems that tagdrol is a terma of his father Kyabje Kangyur Rinpoche


Malcolm
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Re: Liberation through six senses

Post by Malcolm » Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:14 pm

bhava wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 8:02 pm
Profound explanation of Tulku Rinpoche Pema Wangyal
Seems that tagdrol is a terma of his father Kyabje Kangyur Rinpoche

No, not at all. All six liberations come from the 17 tantras, etc.

bhava
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Re: Liberation through six senses

Post by bhava » Thu Feb 13, 2020 2:05 pm

I ment that particular Tagdrol TPWR is showing, describing, reading mantras etc.
By the way do you have any personal experience of thos sgrol, in particular reading Tibetan book of the Dead, to a dying western practitioner, especially the section of introduction of ground luminosity, or introduction of bardo of dharmata - being effective?

pemachophel
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Re: Liberation through six senses

Post by pemachophel » Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:46 pm

I know you addressed your question to Loppon-la, but I would like to share what I've been taught about reading the Bardo Thodrol prayers to a dying person/recently deceased person. First, it's important to understand that this is a Dzogchen practice. Therefore, the practice is especially beneficial for a Dzogchen practitioner who has received (and practiced) it in their lifetime. Secondly, the person reading the prayers should have A) completed ngondro and B) have received the lung for these prayers. Further, the more they have personally practiced them and the higher their Realization, the more effective they will be. While there may be positive benefit for just anyone reading these to anyone, that is not how they are practiced within the tradition.

For non-Dzogchen practitioners, phowa and jang-chog may be better options, although should be performed by someone who has the authority and power to do so. When really practiced Lamas do these two ceremonies, they can actually see or know where the deceased has gone and whether these practices have been effective.

What anyone can do for anyone is to recite Zang Chod Monlam (The Aspiration of Excellent Conduct), say manis, and light lamps. Lighting lamps is especially good because the offering of lamps has the result of increasing clarity. So by dedicating this merit to the deceased, it will help the deceased see with greater clarity in the bardo.

Best is to practice in this life and realize the actual state beyond birth and death.

Good luck & best wishes.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

bhava
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Re: Liberation through six senses

Post by bhava » Fri Feb 14, 2020 6:31 pm

Dear Pema Chopel,

thanks for your answer. Have you recieved a specific training in how these introductions in accordance with Karling shitro or similiar are performed?

In general many teachers say the background of a dying person is of outmost importance. Eg for a Christian, non-believer or non-buddhist perhaps some of these methods giving a cause of liberation, such as tagdrol or related mantras, nyongdrol etc can be of great benefit, if circumstance allows it.

I also believe a lama performing such rituals, intruductions etc, who actual can directly know the condition of the mind of a deceased person is a realised lama, ordinary lama cannot do that. Perhaps he/she can check skilfuly some signs, make divinations, have a dream etc but to apply higher perception is not in a range of non-enlightened practitioner.

Thanks once again for your elaborate answer.
Metta

pemachophel
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Re: Liberation through six senses

Post by pemachophel » Fri Feb 14, 2020 9:18 pm

Bhava,

Yes, I have received these teachings, i.e., phowa, jang-chog/ney-dren, Bardo Thodrol prayers.

I have known several Lamas who could know where a departed person's consciousness was and if phowa was successful or not. My Root Guru was quite expert in this.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ

tingdzin
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Re: Liberation through six senses

Post by tingdzin » Sat Feb 15, 2020 8:47 am

Trungpa Rinpoche said that going through these processes for someone who has not had training in them can actually be harmful. I think it's in the Fremantle edition of the Todrol.

bhava
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Re: Liberation through six senses

Post by bhava » Sun Feb 16, 2020 10:10 am

Dear Pema Chopel,

thank you, oh then you are very fortune one. Also it seems that your teachers are highly qualified. I mean there is difference in applying good intention, bodhicitta, power of mantras, concentrations and "really knowing", eg having access and seeing things through higher perception. It is fortunate to be close to such noble ones and even more so if one is helped by them. I knew some dharma friends who died quite lonely, they closed themselves off, stuck in pain. Another more lucky one got a phone call from his Teacher, a Rinpoche, with some advices and encouragements...

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