Practice advice please

GrapeLover
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by GrapeLover »

Aryjna wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:08 am
Rangdrol01 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:03 pm
Aryjna wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 9:29 pm

Though I do not use astrology, this argument is out of place. The discussion is about relative value, not ultimate value, which is an absurd notion in itself. In addition, this is not a Theravada forum, so the Pali canon is not the final authority. Even if it were, that sloppily written blog post is 80% an opinion piece with very few references, which for the most part are not even on the topic of astrology. Not to mention that even when astrology is mentioned, it is not the same astrology found in Tibetan buddhism, or even the same term, coming from a different culture and language.
The Pali Canon is still the foundation of Buddhism regardless of whether it is Theravada or Mahayana. That site is not sloppy at all, it consists of quotes directly from the Pali Canon with reference. Tibetan Buddhism is an amalgamation of Buddhism, Shamanism, Shaivism and Shaktism, as Lama Tsultrim Allione, among others, clearly states in the Study Buddhism portal.
The Pali cannon is not the foundation of buddhism, it is a collection of texts written in Pali, which is considered by Theravadins to be the only teachings of the Buddha.

The few references in that blogpost are interpreted by the author according to his own opinions, which are not authoritative.

Your statement regarding Vajrayana qualifies as slander of the dharma, and as such out of place in a Mahayana/Vajrayana forum.
Yes, I feel like it’s somewhat relevant to note that the Pali Canon is a specifically Theravada recension and strictly speaking has no standing in Maha/Vajrayana, as opposed to the agamas
Rangdrol01
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by Rangdrol01 »

GrapeLover wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:28 am
Aryjna wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:08 am
Rangdrol01 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:03 pm

The Pali Canon is still the foundation of Buddhism regardless of whether it is Theravada or Mahayana. That site is not sloppy at all, it consists of quotes directly from the Pali Canon with reference. Tibetan Buddhism is an amalgamation of Buddhism, Shamanism, Shaivism and Shaktism, as Lama Tsultrim Allione, among others, clearly states in the Study Buddhism portal.
The Pali cannon is not the foundation of buddhism, it is a collection of texts written in Pali, which is considered by Theravadins to be the only teachings of the Buddha.

The few references in that blogpost are interpreted by the author according to his own opinions, which are not authoritative.

Your statement regarding Vajrayana qualifies as slander of the dharma, and as such out of place in a Mahayana/Vajrayana forum.
Yes, I feel like it’s somewhat relevant to note that the Pali Canon is a specifically Theravada recension and strictly speaking has no standing in Maha/Vajrayana, as opposed to the agamas
As per His Holiness the Dalai Lama “The Pali canon provides the basis for all subsequent Buddhist literature…the study of which is especially valuable for clarifying understanding of many fundamental Buddhist doctrines.”
amanitamusc
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by amanitamusc »

Rangdrol01 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 am
amanitamusc wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:09 pm
Rangdrol01 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:10 pm

It has no inherent existence thus and is of no ultimate value. The Buddha himself criticised astrology. Read the Pali Canon.
You should tell your Chod Lama this view you have.As i have said before,looking for practice advise on a forum full of strangers is foolish at best.You seem more interested in plugging the Pali canon anyway.
. The Pali Canon is ONE of the foundations of Buddhism, and a very important one at that.
Not in Tibetan Buddhism.You seem to be trolling the Nyingma forum or you really have much to learn about Tibetan Buddhism.
Norwegian
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by Norwegian »

The idea of a Shaiva background for Vajrayana is not accepted as fact. This idea is one that Alexis Sanderson certainly is a proponent of. But he is not everything or everybody.

So, if instead you read Christian Wedemeyer's "Making Sense of Tantric Buddhism: History, Semiology, and Transgression in the Indian Traditions", this idea is not exactly given support. And naturally enough Vajrayana itself most definitely does not accept this idea at all. That's a given.

At any rate, with regards to the first post of the thread, you can do Chöd just fine without ritual implements. Of course it may be that they are required in a specific tradition or sadhana, but at least initially, focus on getting to know the practice, and enjoying the practice. There's many things to learn and develop, you can try to get the implements as you go along, over time.

As for the "What the Buddha said" argument, the Buddha said many things. To many different students. Perhaps astrology is not viewed as favorably in the Hinayana, but in Vajrayana and Dzogchen, it certainly has its place. The Suttas and the Nikayas are very nice, and more people should read them, but really, they are not that important in the context of the forum and sub forum we're in right now. Why? Because the Mahayana is a complete path on its own, just like Vajrayana is a complete path on its own, just like Dzogchen is a complete path on its own. Thus none of these paths needs the Suttas and the Nikayas, nor do they rely on them. And that's completely fine.
"The Guru is the Buddha, the Guru is the Dharma,
The Guru is the Sangha too,
The Guru is Śrī Heruka.
The All-Creating King is the Guru."

-- The Secret Assembly Tantra
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PeterC
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by PeterC »

Rangdrol01 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 am
amanitamusc wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:09 pm
Rangdrol01 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 7:10 pm

It has no inherent existence thus and is of no ultimate value. The Buddha himself criticised astrology. Read the Pali Canon.
You should tell your Chod Lama this view you have.As i have said before,looking for practice advise on a forum full of strangers is foolish at best.You seem more interested in plugging the Pali canon anyway.
That Lama knows very well. There’s nothing foolish about enquiring on a forum, it provides different view points, at best. It’s your choice to comment on my post. The Pali Canon is ONE of the foundations of Buddhism, and a very important one at that.
The Pali canon was a set of teachings given to a specific set of students according to their circumstances and it describes a certain view and tenets. It is not the totality of Buddhism. Other vehicles, taught to other students with different circumstances, describe view and tenets that are different from the perspective of the vehicle expounded in the Pali canon. The other vehicles can, in places, seem to be incompatible or inconceivable with the teachings of the Pali canon from the perspective of the Pali canon. They are not incompatible when viewed the other way around. This is why HHDL can say that it's the foundation, when he himself teaches and practices things that are very different from what is taught in it.

As someone with Vajrayana vows you should seek to understand these issues - how the different vehicles and sets of vows fit together. It is very easy to fall into breaches of samaya if you discuss these topics without that understanding.
GrapeLover
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by GrapeLover »

Rangdrol01 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:35 am
GrapeLover wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:28 am
Aryjna wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:08 am
The Pali cannon is not the foundation of buddhism, it is a collection of texts written in Pali, which is considered by Theravadins to be the only teachings of the Buddha.

The few references in that blogpost are interpreted by the author according to his own opinions, which are not authoritative.

Your statement regarding Vajrayana qualifies as slander of the dharma, and as such out of place in a Mahayana/Vajrayana forum.
Yes, I feel like it’s somewhat relevant to note that the Pali Canon is a specifically Theravada recension and strictly speaking has no standing in Maha/Vajrayana, as opposed to the agamas
As per His Holiness the Dalai Lama “The Pali canon provides the basis for all subsequent Buddhist literature…the study of which is especially valuable for clarifying understanding of many fundamental Buddhist doctrines.”
He doesn’t say that in the original source; he says:

“After the Buddha’s passing, a record of what he said was maintained as an oral tradition. Those who heard the teachings would periodically meet with others for communal recitations of what they had heard and memorized. In due course, these recitations from memory were written down, laying the basis for all subsequent Buddhist literature. The Pāli Canon is one of the earliest of these written records…”

The Pāli Canon is one of them and is authoritative in Theravada; the āgamas are another and are the authoritative equivalent in the Mahayana schools. He is an ecumenical figure and was invited to give a foreword to a Theravada book; he wasn’t going to take the opportunity to nitpick about the authority of the Pali Canon. But strictly speaking, it is as I stated before.
Rangdrol01
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by Rangdrol01 »

PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:08 pm
Rangdrol01 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 am
amanitamusc wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 11:09 pm
You should tell your Chod Lama this view you have.As i have said before,looking for practice advise on a forum full of strangers is foolish at best.You seem more interested in plugging the Pali canon anyway.
That Lama knows very well. There’s nothing foolish about enquiring on a forum, it provides different view points, at best. It’s your choice to comment on my post. The Pali Canon is ONE of the foundations of Buddhism, and a very important one at that.
The Pali canon was a set of teachings given to a specific set of students according to their circumstances and it describes a certain view and tenets. It is not the totality of Buddhism. Other vehicles, taught to other students with different circumstances, describe view and tenets that are different from the perspective of the vehicle expounded in the Pali canon. The other vehicles can, in places, seem to be incompatible or inconceivable with the teachings of the Pali canon from the perspective of the Pali canon. They are not incompatible when viewed the other way around. This is why HHDL can say that it's the foundation, when he himself teaches and practices things that are very different from what is taught in it.

As someone with Vajrayana vows you should seek to understand these issues - how the different vehicles and sets of vows fit together. It is very easy to fall into breaches of samaya if you discuss these topics without that understanding.
So what if I fall into breach of samaya. This is religion. It’s strange how ex Christians (for example) think nothing of breaking their baptism and confirmation vows but are so careful of breaking vows they took in another tradition. Who is to say that breaking of any vows in any tradition is less or more severe than another? Vows are man made constructs that form part of man made religion and all its trappings.
Rangdrol01
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by Rangdrol01 »

GrapeLover wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:14 pm
Rangdrol01 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:35 am
GrapeLover wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 10:28 am

Yes, I feel like it’s somewhat relevant to note that the Pali Canon is a specifically Theravada recension and strictly speaking has no standing in Maha/Vajrayana, as opposed to the agamas
As per His Holiness the Dalai Lama “The Pali canon provides the basis for all subsequent Buddhist literature…the study of which is especially valuable for clarifying understanding of many fundamental Buddhist doctrines.”
He doesn’t say that in the original source; he says:

“After the Buddha’s passing, a record of what he said was maintained as an oral tradition. Those who heard the teachings would periodically meet with others for communal recitations of what they had heard and memorized. In due course, these recitations from memory were written down, laying the basis for all subsequent Buddhist literature. The Pāli Canon is one of the earliest of these written records…”

The Pāli Canon is one of them and is authoritative in Theravada; the āgamas are another and are the authoritative equivalent in the Mahayana schools. He is an ecumenical figure and was invited to give a foreword to a Theravada book; he wasn’t going to take the opportunity to nitpick about the authority of the Pali Canon. But strictly speaking, it is as I stated before.

Ok
Malcolm
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by Malcolm »

Rangdrol01 wrote: Thu Sep 10, 2020 10:03 pm
The Pali Canon is still the foundation of Buddhism
No. It is not.
Justmeagain
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by Justmeagain »

GrapeLover wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:14 pm
He is an ecumenical figure

:rolling:
GrapeLover
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by GrapeLover »

Justmeagain wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 pm
GrapeLover wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:14 pm
He is an ecumenical figure

:rolling:
Do you not think so? He often takes the role of a general “figurehead” of Buddhism, as reflected by the fact that he was asked to write a foreword to the quoted book, even though it is Theravada. He often avoids stepping on the toes of other religions, etc, emphasising common points, rather than bluntly stating “sectarian” perspectives. That is what I meant.
Justmeagain
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by Justmeagain »

GrapeLover wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:23 pm
Justmeagain wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 1:06 pm
GrapeLover wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:14 pm
He is an ecumenical figure

:rolling:
Do you not think so?
No. I don't.
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SonamTashi
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by SonamTashi »

Rangdrol01 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:32 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:08 pm
Rangdrol01 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:36 am

That Lama knows very well. There’s nothing foolish about enquiring on a forum, it provides different view points, at best. It’s your choice to comment on my post. The Pali Canon is ONE of the foundations of Buddhism, and a very important one at that.
The Pali canon was a set of teachings given to a specific set of students according to their circumstances and it describes a certain view and tenets. It is not the totality of Buddhism. Other vehicles, taught to other students with different circumstances, describe view and tenets that are different from the perspective of the vehicle expounded in the Pali canon. The other vehicles can, in places, seem to be incompatible or inconceivable with the teachings of the Pali canon from the perspective of the Pali canon. They are not incompatible when viewed the other way around. This is why HHDL can say that it's the foundation, when he himself teaches and practices things that are very different from what is taught in it.

As someone with Vajrayana vows you should seek to understand these issues - how the different vehicles and sets of vows fit together. It is very easy to fall into breaches of samaya if you discuss these topics without that understanding.
So what if I fall into breach of samaya. This is religion. It’s strange how ex Christians (for example) think nothing of breaking their baptism and confirmation vows but are so careful of breaking vows they took in another tradition. Who is to say that breaking of any vows in any tradition is less or more severe than another? Vows are man made constructs that form part of man made religion and all its trappings.
Well are you a Christian or are you a Buddhist? If we believed in Christianity, we would be Christians and we would take those vows seriously. We are not Christians, so we do not take it seriously. But do you really want to be a Buddhist? If so, then maybe you should actually take it seriously. If not, then why are you here? It sounds like you have a very cherry-picked approach to Buddhism because you just view it as "man made religion." You're not going to get very far with that kind of approach.
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Josef
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by Josef »

Josef wrote: Thu Sep 03, 2020 5:27 pm
Rangdrol01 wrote: Tue Sep 01, 2020 6:32 pm Isn’t the Dharma more powerful than any astrological conditions? A great Lama once told me that some cultures can’t be separated from their religions while others, like the modern western culture, can. So the “right astrological conditions“ is something that is rooted in eastern culture rather than in the Dharma specifically.
Astrological conditions are a part of dharma is that they are a relative phenomena that impacts a the conditions of sentient beings. It's not a cultural phenomena its a relative phenomena that is based on the impact that the movement of forces that surround us and that is beyond cultural limitations.
Since you clearly already think you know everything why are you asking for advice?
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.
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javier.espinoza.t
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by javier.espinoza.t »

Fight advice please
SilenceMonkey
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by SilenceMonkey »

SonamTashi wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 7:39 pm
Rangdrol01 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:32 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:08 pm

The Pali canon was a set of teachings given to a specific set of students according to their circumstances and it describes a certain view and tenets. It is not the totality of Buddhism. Other vehicles, taught to other students with different circumstances, describe view and tenets that are different from the perspective of the vehicle expounded in the Pali canon. The other vehicles can, in places, seem to be incompatible or inconceivable with the teachings of the Pali canon from the perspective of the Pali canon. They are not incompatible when viewed the other way around. This is why HHDL can say that it's the foundation, when he himself teaches and practices things that are very different from what is taught in it.

As someone with Vajrayana vows you should seek to understand these issues - how the different vehicles and sets of vows fit together. It is very easy to fall into breaches of samaya if you discuss these topics without that understanding.
So what if I fall into breach of samaya. This is religion. It’s strange how ex Christians (for example) think nothing of breaking their baptism and confirmation vows but are so careful of breaking vows they took in another tradition. Who is to say that breaking of any vows in any tradition is less or more severe than another? Vows are man made constructs that form part of man made religion and all its trappings.
Well are you a Christian or are you a Buddhist? If we believed in Christianity, we would be Christians and we would take those vows seriously. We are not Christians, so we do not take it seriously. But do you really want to be a Buddhist? If so, then maybe you should actually take it seriously. If not, then why are you here? It sounds like you have a very cherry-picked approach to Buddhism because you just view it as "man made religion." You're not going to get very far with that kind of approach.
Nice way to phrase that.

I would add it's not just samaya vows that buddhists take seriously, but all vows. From the refuge vows and the five precepts to the bodhisattva vows, all the way up to the highest samaya. We also take seriously our personal vows, which are not explicitly part of buddhist training but are vows we make to ourselves to help us along our path.
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Dan74
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by Dan74 »

The Agamas are virtually identical to the Pali canon, so to say that the former are authoritative while the latter is not, is kinda splitting hairs, it seems to me.

Theravada is a beautiful tradition in itself and if you feel drawn to it, why not study it?
GrapeLover
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by GrapeLover »

Dan74 wrote: Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:24 pm The Agamas are virtually identical to the Pali canon, so to say that the former are authoritative while the latter is not, is kinda splitting hairs, it seems to me.

Theravada is a beautiful tradition in itself and if you feel drawn to it, why not study it?
It is splitting hairs in general, but there are substantive differences between certain discourses as preserved in the agamas vs the Pali Canon, which sometimes change the "point". For instance, one might wonder why Brahma Sahampati had to ask the Buddha to start teaching, rather than simply "dwelling at ease", if he ought to have bodhicitta. But actually that event only occurs in the Pali Canon and is not present in the agamas. In the agama equivalent of the Kalama Sutta, he tells them to have faith rather than to test the teachings. Etc. So to argue against a Maha/Vajrayana practice by referring only to the Pali Canon and without referencing the corresponding agama is flawed. Of course, if the relevant agama is identical then you can take it from there.

That alone was my purpose in pointing out that the Pali Canon is explicitly Theravada.
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PeterC
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by PeterC »

Rangdrol01 wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:32 pm
PeterC wrote: Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:08 pm As someone with Vajrayana vows you should seek to understand these issues - how the different vehicles and sets of vows fit together. It is very easy to fall into breaches of samaya if you discuss these topics without that understanding.
So what if I fall into breach of samaya. This is religion. It’s strange how ex Christians (for example) think nothing of breaking their baptism and confirmation vows but are so careful of breaking vows they took in another tradition. Who is to say that breaking of any vows in any tradition is less or more severe than another? Vows are man made constructs that form part of man made religion and all its trappings.
If that’s your attitude you should never have received vajrayana teachings in the first place. You should probably study the Pali canon, since you have interest in it. Everyone here would agree that practising in that tradition is an excellent and worthwhile thing to do. What you shouldn’t do is criticize other traditions that you clearly don’t understand. Perhaps you should understand that in terms of being a violation of right speech.
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Re: Practice advice please

Post by pemachophel »

The Buddhadharma in general and Vajrayana in particular, including samaya, are not man-made. They are a revelation from the Dharmakaya. If one meditates, one can directly experience this. If one simply runs their discursive mind, one will never realize this.
Pema Chophel པདྨ་ཆོས་འཕེལ
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