words to the west
words to the west
http://www.american-buddha.com/words.west.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Re: words to the west
I would avoid making links to that site. The interview by Thinley Norbu is used to bring fear, doubt and uncertainty to practitioners on that site.
Use this site instead http://welcomingbuddhist.org/archives/124" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: words to the west
Interesting writing.
This is striking:
This may or may not be true depending on the tradition and locality.Another problem is that almost all Western teachers of Buddhism are either nihilists or eternalists, and not actual Buddhist lineage holders.
I've heard before that some Tibetan lamas have expressed dismay about the spiritual faculties of students in the west. This is probably related to the prevailing reality-world views which are inherently materialistic and foster adharmic views, doubt and scepticism rather than right views, conviction and intellectual prowess.
My experience in Asia would definitely affirm what is being said here. With the exception of Japan, Buddhism in places like Taiwan, Nepal and India is like night and day compared to what you have in the west. At the most basic level people have faith in the Triple Gem and express concern about their future rebirths, but in the west a lot of self-identifying Buddhists don't really accept even the essentials of Buddhadharma like rebirth and karma, much less having genuine conviction that liberation is possible. If you don't think samsara actually happens or that our actions direct our future rebirths, then liberation in the Buddhist context might as well be a fictional fantasy.
What makes matters worse is you have publishers publishing "Buddhist teachers" who teach false dharma and only reinforce wrong views.
Re: words to the west
http://welcomingbuddhist.org/archives/124" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;heart wrote:[
Use this site instead http://welcomingbuddhist.org/archives/124" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
/magnus
Re: words to the west
A response: http://www.purifymind.com/LetterTharchin.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dungse Rinpoche did not mince words in correcting the view of beings, eastern or western.
He loved his chosen country, the USA, and western Buddhists enough to point out our faults.
It would be a mistake to think that he refrained from scolding Asians for their shortcomings
in view or practice.
Dungse Rinpoche did not mince words in correcting the view of beings, eastern or western.
He loved his chosen country, the USA, and western Buddhists enough to point out our faults.
It would be a mistake to think that he refrained from scolding Asians for their shortcomings
in view or practice.
- Adamantine
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Re: words to the west
Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain a copy of the entire, unedited version of the Tricycle interview with TNR? Lama Tharchin sounds like he read or heard the entire thing, so it must be out there somewhere?
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: words to the west
The link I provided is the whole thing.Adamantine wrote:Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain a copy of the entire, unedited version of the Tricycle interview with TNR? Lama Tharchin sounds like he read or heard the entire thing, so it must be out there somewhere?
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
- Adamantine
- Former staff member
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- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
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Re: words to the west
That is not just the entire thing as it appeared in the published Tricycle magazine? Because I own that copy and believe it is about the same length.. I meant the entire interview, that was never published... because Tricycle heavily edited it. The full answers that TNR gave, not just what made it into print...heart wrote:The link I provided is the whole thing.Adamantine wrote:Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain a copy of the entire, unedited version of the Tricycle interview with TNR? Lama Tharchin sounds like he read or heard the entire thing, so it must be out there somewhere?
/magnus
From Lama Tharchin's letter:
Having agreed to an interview, Rinpoche very generously and clearly answered Ms. Tworkov’s questions regarding a current movement among many Buddhist groups in America aimed at ‘diminishing the role of the teacher’ and reliance on the ‘collective wisdom of the sangha’. The interview was only partially published and heavily edited, demonstrating the weakness of our collective karma. I believe this caused confusion for many people. Through only having selected passages presented, many readers wrongly interpreted Rinpoche’s words and motivation, stirring strong reactions of judgment, confusion, and doubt.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: words to the west
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what.Adamantine wrote:That is not just the entire thing as it appeared in the published Tricycle magazine? Because I own that copy and believe it is about the same length.. I meant the entire interview, that was never published... because Tricycle heavily edited it. The full answers that TNR gave, not just what made it into print...heart wrote:The link I provided is the whole thing.Adamantine wrote:Does anyone know if it is possible to obtain a copy of the entire, unedited version of the Tricycle interview with TNR? Lama Tharchin sounds like he read or heard the entire thing, so it must be out there somewhere?
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
- Adamantine
- Former staff member
- Posts: 4027
- Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:09 am
- Location: Space is the Place
Re: words to the west
You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what.
/magnus
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: words to the west
Tricycle later published a revised and expanded version of the interview that they claim was not altered. The second publication centered around HH Thinley Norbu's most controversial statement from the originally published interview. There was some more light shed but in general the second publication supported the statement in the original that basically most Western teachers were either nihilists or eternalists.Adamantine wrote:You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what.
/magnus
Kirt
“Where do atomic bombs come from?”
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Zen Master Seung Sahn said, “That’s simple. Atomic bombs come from the mind that likes this and doesn’t like that.”
"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.
"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche
Re: words to the west
Sure, they are all in for the "American" Buddhism, or Protestant Buddhism as I call it. They might have edited it a lot at Tricycle but the wisdom of Thinley Norbu Rinpoche outshine their attempt completely which is probably why you can't find it at their website anymore.Adamantine wrote:You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what.
/magnus
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: words to the west
A bit of of an over-exaggeration I'd say.kirtu wrote:...but in general the second publication supported the statement in the original that basically most Western teachers were either nihilists or eternalists.
Kirt
N
Re: words to the west
I think the point is that without realization you will always tend to fall towards nihilism or eternalism.Namdrol wrote:A bit of of an over-exaggeration I'd say.kirtu wrote:...but in general the second publication supported the statement in the original that basically most Western teachers were either nihilists or eternalists.
Kirt
N
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Re: words to the west
heart wrote:I think the point is that without realization you will always tend to fall towards nihilism or eternalism.Namdrol wrote:A bit of of an over-exaggeration I'd say.kirtu wrote:...but in general the second publication supported the statement in the original that basically most Western teachers were either nihilists or eternalists.
Kirt
N
/magnus
Then the comment should have been extended to cover almost all Buddhist teachers.
- Adamantine
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Re: words to the west
Namdrol wrote:heart wrote:I think the point is that without realization you will always tend to fall towards nihilism or eternalism.Namdrol wrote:
A bit of of an over-exaggeration I'd say.
N
/magnus
Then the comment should have been extended to cover almost all Buddhist teachers.
Well, considering who he is, he undoubtedly knew many realized Tibetan masters firsthand...a handful of course even his close relatives.. whereas he may only have ever met one or two Western ones.. I personally have met far more Tibetan masters I'd deem realized than I have Western ones... so perhaps a generalization, a pointed one-- but hardly an over-exaggeration. . . at least, from my POV.
Contentment is the ultimate wealth;
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Detachment is the final happiness. ~Sri Saraha
Re: words to the west
I am not a realized person, but I am neither and eternalist nor a nihilist.Adamantine wrote:
but hardly an over-exaggeration. . . at least, from my POV.
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Re: words to the west
There was actually a mini-scandal over the way the editor, Helen Tworkov, had manipulated Norbu Rinpoche's responses in the published copy of the interview to reflect badly on him and on Vajrayana in general. Tricycle lost quite a few subscribers, including myself, over that little lapse of judgement and I believe the magazine printed a carefully worded not-quite-apology afterward.Adamantine wrote:You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what.
/magnus
Chris
"All the sublime teachings, so profound--to throw away one and then grab yet another will not bear even a single fruit. Persevere, therefore, in simply one."
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
--Dudjom Rinpoche, "Nectar for the Hearts of Fortunate Disciples. Song No. 8"
Re: words to the west
Yup -- you see, Tworkov, so I understand, was a disgrunteled ex-student of TNR's who had defected to Zen.Silent Bob wrote:There was actually a mini-scandal over the way the editor, Helen Tworkov, had manipulated Norbu Rinpoche's responses in the published copy of the interview to reflect badly on him and on Vajrayana in general. Tricycle lost quite a few subscribers, including myself, over that little lapse of judgement and I believe the magazine printed a carefully worded not-quite-apology afterward.Adamantine wrote:You can see the conflict from reading Lama Tharchin's letter, and knowing the editorial bias of Tricycle in general, which is fairly obvious if you've ever looked at a few!heart wrote:
Ah, I think no one have except maybe Tricycle. There was some conflict connected with this interview, can't remember what.
/magnus
Chris
- Dechen Norbu
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Re: words to the west
That explains a lot.