Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

mandog
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Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by mandog » Tue Sep 18, 2018 6:29 pm

Does anybody close to Shangpa organizations in the US know about this? Is this just political nonsense?

https://gallery.mailchimp.com/732e6541a ... larify.pdf

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conebeckham
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by conebeckham » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:44 pm

I know about this, and that is all I am going to say.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

mandog
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by mandog » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:54 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:44 pm
I know about this, and that is all I am going to say.
Well, then why respond? Did he do what he is accused of doing? He must have been quite young when the accusations were made.

smcj
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by smcj » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:55 pm

I know nothing about the specifics of that situation. But I do know that Dharma is having a rough time in the 21st Century. I am so lucky to have met the lamas I met in my youth. Things were simpler then.

Best thing to do is whatever we can with our own practice. If we are successful, then the various lama dramas will then all become moot.
Last edited by smcj on Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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conebeckham
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by conebeckham » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:04 pm

The reason I responded was because you asked the question.

I think I am the guy most "representing" Shangpa around here, though I did not choose to be that guy, nor am I a mouthpiece for anyone but myself. I have a deep and abiding love and connection with the Shangpa Kagyu transmission and with the lineage. I am no lama, and no lineage holder.

Now, the reason I don't say anything about this particular situation is because I am not interested in fomenting rumor, in any direction. I have heard a great deal of rumor, and some indisputable fact, but I am not going to engage in the conversation because it does not benefit me, nor does it benefit anyone else. If you are interested in the issue, you can do some research, visiting Youtube and Facebook, amongst other places, where you will find plenty of grist for your mill. There are at least two sides to every story, including this one. It's good to examine any prospective teacher, so I'd urge anyone interested in becoming a Student of Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche to exert their due diligence, just as I would with any prospective guru. In the end, though, each individual must make up their own mind, and in any event I'm a tertiary source, if anything, so no one should care what I think.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Spelare
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Spelare » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:29 pm

The elephant in the room, unreferenced in the above document, remains the physical and sexual abuse that Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche reportedly endured from a young age at the hands of senior monks of the institution that issued it. His alleged reckless and destructive behavior could seem inexplicable when presented out of context, as in the document. When read with that background of abuse in mind, it becomes eminently understandable.

A yangsi faced with a climate of abuse that he not only personally endured but which others (notably but not exclusively women) experienced under the aegis of his predecessor could be forgiven for lashing out, engaging in rebellious behavior, and not wholeheartedly endorsing the agenda of those who were complicit in perpetuating that state of affairs. His dismissal of certain lamas and staff, purported to have been corrupt, also looks different when viewed in that light.

The document suggests that certain figures with authority over the institution's affairs remain unrepentant and unwilling to even engage in self-criticism, at least publicly. Maybe I'm missing something here, but that's how this looks from where I'm sitting.
Neither person nor skandhas
but stainless wisdom is Buddha.
In recognition ever serene—
Refuge I take therein.

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conebeckham
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by conebeckham » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:39 am

It is possible that parts of each side's story may be true, while other parts may not be true. It is possible that there are mis-interpretations on one or both sides, as well.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

mandog
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by mandog » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:50 am

conebeckham wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:04 pm
The reason I responded was because you asked the question.

I think I am the guy most "representing" Shangpa around here, though I did not choose to be that guy, nor am I a mouthpiece for anyone but myself. I have a deep and abiding love and connection with the Shangpa Kagyu transmission and with the lineage. I am no lama, and no lineage holder.

Now, the reason I don't say anything about this particular situation is because I am not interested in fomenting rumor, in any direction. I have heard a great deal of rumor, and some indisputable fact, but I am not going to engage in the conversation because it does not benefit me, nor does it benefit anyone else. If you are interested in the issue, you can do some research, visiting Youtube and Facebook, amongst other places, where you will find plenty of grist for your mill. There are at least two sides to every story, including this one. It's good to examine any prospective teacher, so I'd urge anyone interested in becoming a Student of Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche to exert their due diligence, just as I would with any prospective guru. In the end, though, each individual must make up their own mind, and in any event I'm a tertiary source, if anything, so no one should care what I think.
This is indeed why I am asking. Yangsi Kalu is touring the US this fall and giving meditation instructions composed by his predecessor along with some empowerments. I would like to make connection with Shangpa tradition and this seemed like it could potentially be a good opportunity. Now that Lama Norlha has passed it does not seem like there are many lamas in the United States who actively propagate the Shangpa lineage.

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Virgo
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Virgo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:56 am

Is the link safe to click? Need I investigate 1's and 0's?

Kevin...

mandog
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by mandog » Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:57 am

Virgo wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:56 am
Is the link safe to click? Need I investigate 1's and 0's?

Kevin...
Well I have been clicking on it...

Investigation can't hurt, but I do not seem to have downloaded a virus.

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Virgo
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Virgo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 1:03 am

mandog wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:57 am
Virgo wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:56 am
Is the link safe to click? Need I investigate 1's and 0's?

Kevin...
Well I have been clicking on it...

Investigation can't hurt, but I do not seem to have downloaded a virus.
Wunderbar.

Kevin...

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Spelare
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Spelare » Wed Sep 19, 2018 2:26 am

mandog wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 12:50 am
This is indeed why I am asking. Yangsi Kalu is touring the US this fall and giving meditation instructions composed by his predecessor along with some empowerments. I would like to make connection with Shangpa tradition and this seemed like it could potentially be a good opportunity. Now that Lama Norlha has passed it does not seem like there are many lamas in the United States who actively propagate the Shangpa lineage.
How about one of Norlha's students, like Willa Miller or Rod Owens? Or you could see whether Sarah Harding is giving teachings. I don't think Richard Barron or Ken McLeod do at the moment, at least not publicly.

Mind you, there are two distributary streams of scandal there around Norlha and McLeod. So . . .
Neither person nor skandhas
but stainless wisdom is Buddha.
In recognition ever serene—
Refuge I take therein.

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Quay
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Quay » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:04 am

I can tell you what I know from my own experience and what Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche spoke in my presence. I had the honor of meeting him and spending some time with him around the time of his 21st birthday. I was also fortunate to receive teachings.

Rinpoche has been totally open about the abuse he suffered as a child. (Video he made about it is on Youtube.) He has also been quite open about the crazy stuff he did when he was a teenager. He has made these accounts into what I think is an exceptionally vivid and profound teaching about samsara.

He has also been quite open about the difficulties he has faced in wanting to reform the lineage, its monasteries, and its lay and monastic centers worldwide. He wishes to modernize, many do not want to do so. There has been a lot of internal politics and political conflict.

I have found him to be very open and completely transparent about his life and work. Others may have an entirely different opinion.

I also admire him immensely and consider him to be one of the most accessible teachers today especially as his English is flawless and he is more than able to communicate to American audiences.

One of the western students of the previous incarnation as well as the current one, Lama Palden of the Sukhasiddhi Foundation in California, is clear in that she regards both incarnations to be the same in essence and in many practices.

So if anyone would like to go hear him at one of the events I have nothing but positive recommendations.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

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Aryjna
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Aryjna » Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:29 am

But has he studied sufficiently and accomplished practices in retreat? If yes, how did he do that if he is still 28 years old and all this drama with the monastery has been happening since years ago? I am just wondering as the information in this thread is a bit confusing.

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heart
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by heart » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:20 am

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:29 am
But has he studied sufficiently and accomplished practices in retreat? If yes, how did he do that if he is still 28 years old and all this drama with the monastery has been happening since years ago? I am just wondering as the information in this thread is a bit confusing.
It is actually written in the link, he did some years of study and a three-year retreat according to the angry monks.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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Aryjna
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Aryjna » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:27 am

heart wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:20 am
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:29 am
But has he studied sufficiently and accomplished practices in retreat? If yes, how did he do that if he is still 28 years old and all this drama with the monastery has been happening since years ago? I am just wondering as the information in this thread is a bit confusing.
It is actually written in the link, he did some years of study and a three-year retreat according to the angry monks.

/magnus
Ah yes, I read the pdf but this part didn't register. The thing that seems weird is that, if he has renounced the whole thing and gone against his lineage for whatever reasons justified or not, why would he want to give teachings anyway? And if he is giving teachings, does he teach Vajrayana, or personal stuff unrelated to lineage?

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heart
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by heart » Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:54 am

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:27 am
heart wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:20 am
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 7:29 am
But has he studied sufficiently and accomplished practices in retreat? If yes, how did he do that if he is still 28 years old and all this drama with the monastery has been happening since years ago? I am just wondering as the information in this thread is a bit confusing.
It is actually written in the link, he did some years of study and a three-year retreat according to the angry monks.

/magnus
Ah yes, I read the pdf but this part didn't register. The thing that seems weird is that, if he has renounced the whole thing and gone against his lineage for whatever reasons justified or not, why would he want to give teachings anyway? And if he is giving teachings, does he teach Vajrayana, or personal stuff unrelated to lineage?
I don't think he go against the lineage, the monks saay he is acting against his predecessors monastery. When he left the monastery as a teenager he accused the monks at the monastery for sexually abusing him. I think that might be a part of the story.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

Simon E.
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Simon E. » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:02 am

The actual problem is the 'tulku' system...its also where the only real solution lies.
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Aryjna
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Aryjna » Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:10 am

heart wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:54 am
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:27 am
heart wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:20 am


It is actually written in the link, he did some years of study and a three-year retreat according to the angry monks.

/magnus
Ah yes, I read the pdf but this part didn't register. The thing that seems weird is that, if he has renounced the whole thing and gone against his lineage for whatever reasons justified or not, why would he want to give teachings anyway? And if he is giving teachings, does he teach Vajrayana, or personal stuff unrelated to lineage?
I don't think he go against the lineage, the monks saay he is acting against his predecessors monastery. When he left the monastery as a teenager he accused the monks at the monastery for sexually abusing him. I think that might be a part of the story.

/magnus
I suppose it's impossible to know without some first hand information.

narraboth
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Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by narraboth » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:00 am

I am puzzle how a highest status tulku in the temple can be abused by lower ranking monk like a common child. Not saying that it's impossible but the power imbalance that often seen in other sexual abuse was not there.

As to his apparent mental unstable-ness, it can indeed be due to his unpleasant childhood of being abused, or it can also be that he had mental issues anyway, and understands/remember things differently from others.

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