Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

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kirtu
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Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by kirtu »

From the Jewel Ornament of Liberation, Chapter 1 (but I don't know the page because my Kindle software doesn't show the page - it's 12% into the text), discussing the Mahayana family of the five families that beings are members of:
F. Marks....
In that case, what kinds of marks are there? Their
bodies and speech are naturally gentle without dependence on a remedy.
Their minds are less deceitful, and have loving-kindness and clarity
toward sentient beings
.
Is the word clarity or charity used in the print version? Is there an online Tibetan version I can take a look at?

If clarity is intended then this implies a natural inclination to see suffering. If charity is intended this implies a natural tendency toward the paramita of giving.

Thanks!

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
plwk
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by plwk »

As you didn't mention which translation version, I am assuming it's this one Image

If so, it's on page 54 of the text, which reads...
In that case, what kinds of marks are there? Their bodies and speech are naturally gentle without dependence on a remedy. Their minds are less deceitful and have loving-kindness and clarity toward sentient beings.
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kirtu
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by kirtu »

plwk wrote: If so, it's on page 54 of the text, which reads...
In that case, what kinds of marks are there? Their bodies and speech are naturally gentle without dependence on a remedy. Their minds are less deceitful and have loving-kindness and clarity toward sentient beings.
That's the version, thanks!. Is there a commentary on JOL? The word "clarity" seems unlikely at this point although not impossible. The reason it seems unlikely is that seeing the mess that we are in could provoke an impulse toward the Sravaka path. The thing keeping beings from that would be seeing the entire mess. However that means that the bodhisattva is already highly developed at least intuitively and that seems unlikely in this context because this section is talking about the natural inclination of beings in the five families and specifically here the natural inclination before development of beings in the Mahayana family. Secondly the section following this reiterates the teaching and explicitly mentions the perfections, not awareness or revulsion toward suffering for other beings:
In other words, in whatever preparatory actions a bodhisattva undertakes, he always cultivates compassion for all sentient beings, has a great inclination toward the Mahayana teachings, has no hesitation to endure hardships, and perfectly performs the root virtue of the perfections. Thus, the Ornament of Mahayana Sutra says: Developing compassion at the preparation stage, Devoted interest, patience, Perfectly performing the virtues-These are the signs of the Mahayana family.
Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
palchi
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by palchi »

I've got the translation by Ken and Katia Holmes (Gems of Dharma, Jewels of Freedom. The classic handbook of Buddhism by Je Gampopa).

The passage is translated as follows:

What are these signs? Bodhisattvas are naturally and uncontrivedly peaceful in what they do an say, their minds have little deceit or hypocrisy and they are loving and joyful in their relations with others. Of this, it says in the dasadharmakasutra:

"Never rough or rude, beyond deceit and hypocrisy and full of love for all beings: they are bodhisattvas."

(p. 12)

Hope that helps....

Palchi
plwk
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by plwk »

Kirtu, as I am unable to comment on that part and not to risk a misinterpretation, here's 2 choices for your kind perusal...
An alternative reading from Thrangu Rinpoche's Image

And Ringu Tulku's Image with this typed excerpt from Chapter 1: The Cause: Buddha Nature, page 12
In the Dashadharmaka Sutra, it says: "The potential of bodhisattvas is detected by its signs, as fire is recognised through smoke and water detected by the presence of waterfowl." We might wonder what these signs are. The body and speech of bodhisattvas are by nature gentle, regardless of the influence of a spiritual friend. Their mind and character are not tainted by fraud or deceit, and they feel love for all beings. There is also a great inner purity. Therefore, if someone, without coming under the positive influence of someone else, is naturally kind, full of compassion, and without duplicity, the he or she is a member of the family of bodhisattvas and is very near to becoming or developing into a buddha. All living beings have these qualities latent within them."
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Grigoris
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by Grigoris »

Could try the Guenther translation for clarification :tongue: http://www.scribd.com/doc/102933051/Gue ... Liberation
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by dzogchungpa »

From p. 7 of Guenther:
The signs are that body and speech, independent of the influence
of a spiritual friend, are by nature gentle and mind is very little
affected by fraud and deceit, while there is love for all beings and
inner purity.
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by emaho »

kirtu wrote: Is there an online Tibetan version I can take a look at?
yup, here:

http://www.dharmadownload.net/download/ ... 38_NYI.pdf

p. 5, line 13:

sems g.yo sgyu shas chung ba dang/
sems can la byams shing dvangs ba dag yin no/

appears to me that Guenther's translation is correct.

bye,

R'n'R
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen
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kirtu
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by kirtu »

So it appears to be neither clarity (of mind or awareness) nor charity but a reading dealing with purity, inner purity and/or compassion and lovingkindness. I wonder why the Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen/Ani Chodron version says clarity, presumably meaning clarity in interactions with sentient beings. So far it seems an obtuse choice of words.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Jinzang
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by Jinzang »

It seems like the word that is being transslated as clarity is dwangs. The better tranlation would seem to be purity. I puzzled over it last night (because of a typo in the text) in a line from the seven limbed prayer:

kun nas dwangs bas phyags 'tshal lo

I pay pure homage in every way
"It's as plain as the nose on your face!" Dottie Primrose
plwk
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by plwk »

So it appears to be neither clarity (of mind or awareness) nor charity but a reading dealing with purity, inner purity and/or compassion and lovingkindness. I wonder why the Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen/Ani Chodron version says clarity, presumably meaning clarity in interactions with sentient beings. So far it seems an obtuse choice of words.
Well, I guess the one sure way to find out is to contact Rinpoche himself and get a clarification from him like on this page. I was fortunate to have met him in person in one local Chinese centre last year by sheer chance when someone informed me of his one day arrival and stopover here on his way to India and sat in his near 2 hour Dharma discourse that night and got the chance to make offerings to him and he even kindly obliged to autograph and even left an advice on my copy of his JOL text.
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by Karma Dorje »

OK, after the recent thread on Guenther I am going to savour for a moment the consummate perspicacity of Guenther's translation of the Jewel Ornament.
"Although my view is higher than the sky, My respect for the cause and effect of actions is as fine as grains of flour."
-Padmasambhava
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kirtu
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by kirtu »

plwk wrote:Well, I guess the one sure way to find out is to contact Rinpoche himself and get a clarification from him ...
Thanks! I was going to do that.
I was fortunate to have met him in person in one local Chinese centre last year by sheer chance when someone informed me of his one day arrival and stopover here on his way to India ...
:twothumbsup:
Excellent!

Karma is ineluctable and amazing ...

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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kirtu
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by kirtu »

Karma Dorje wrote:OK, after the recent thread on Guenther I am going to savour for a moment the consummate perspicacity of Guenther's translation of the Jewel Ornament.
HAHAHAHA! I was thinking something similar but I'm not sure quite how to take that - :bow: or :jawdrop:

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
emaho
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by emaho »

kirtu wrote:So it appears to be neither clarity (of mind or awareness) nor charity but a reading dealing with purity, inner purity and/or compassion and lovingkindness. I wonder why the Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen/Ani Chodron version says clarity, presumably meaning clarity in interactions with sentient beings. So far it seems an obtuse choice of words.

Kirt
Imho the difference between clarity and purity (if there is any) is not the essential point, the term dvangs pa can mean both:
http://www.nitartha.org wrote:dwangs pa - {dvangs pa, dvangs pa, dvangs pa} intr. v.; pure, clean, clear, limpid, pellucid, transparent, limpid ( like crystal) [ry]
as well as dag pa:
http://www.nitartha.org wrote:dag pa
pf. of {'dag pa}; 1) correct, true, accurate; 2) clean, pure, purified; immaculate; 3) cleanness, purity, immaculacy; purified aspect 4) genuine, authentic, 5) freed; liberated [ry]
I don't know what exactly is the difference in meaning between dvangs pa and dag pa or if dvangs ba dag is simply pleonastic, anyway you might as well translate it as clean and pure.

The problem as I see it is rather that this translation
Their minds are less deceitful, and have loving-kindness and clarity
toward sentient beings
.
interprets the expression dvangs ba dag as an adverb describing the way they relate to sentient beings, wheras in the Tibetan text dvangs ba dag is an epithet describing the mind of the Bodhisattva: it is the Bodhisattva's mind which is described as clean and pure, not the way he relates to sentient beings.
"I struggled with some demons, They were middle class and tame..." L. Cohen
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Grigoris
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by Grigoris »

Clarity, as in clear, can be used as a synonym for purity as in pure. I cannot see the problem. Especially if the person doing the translating does not have a perfect grasp of the English language (like who does?).
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde
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kirtu
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by kirtu »

I have been told that Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen taught on JOL and would occasionally point out words in the translation that need to be changed. However it is not clear if he addressed this passage. I hope to raise the question soon.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by Quiet Heart »

:smile:
I am NOT a follower of that tradition, and I could NOT translate what was written anyway.
But just from my personal opinion, and considering the English meaning of both clarity and charity, I would prefer clarity.
So let me explain with a small short example why.
My grandson (hypothetical grandson I must add) wants to play all day and not attend school.
But, being older, I know it is important for him to have a proper education in his later life.
Therefore, because I see the situation with CLARITY, I chose to force him to attend school against his wishes.
He might say that showing CHARITY I should allow him to play all day and not attend school, even though that would, in fact, be a false charity.
But, again in my humble opinion, the awakend person, seeing the true situation with the CLEAR understanding of his/her awakened state with CLARITY of understanding, would chose CLARITY as the best choice for another person.
Therefore, I say, clarity not charity.
Others might have another opinion.
:smile:
Shame on you Shakyamuni for setting the precedent of leaving home.
Did you think it was not there--
in your wife's lovely face
in your baby's laughter?
Did you think you had to go elsewhere (simply) to find it?
from - Judyth Collin
The Layman's Lament
From What Book, 1998, p. 52
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kirtu
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by kirtu »

Quiet Heart wrote:...
Therefore, because I see the situation with CLARITY, I chose to force him to attend school against his wishes....Therefore, I say, clarity not charity....
Thanks but we have gone beyond thinking that there was a single mistranslated word and have shown that the phrasing itself is odd in the context of the Tibetan and other translations. The concept being mistranslated deals with purity so the question is why this particular translation choose clarity to begin with. So I'll email Khenchen Konchog and ask him.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

"Most all-knowing Mañjuśrī, ...
Please illuminate the radiant wisdom spirit
Of my precious Buddha nature."
HH Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
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Thomas Amundsen
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Re: Gampopa JOL: Clarity or charity?

Post by Thomas Amundsen »

Just my own two cents to add: I went through this teaching with Lama Thubten Nima of Garchen Institute, and he didn't correct the translation of this line in Khenpo Konchog Gyaltsen's translation.
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