Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

lama tsewang
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by lama tsewang » Tue Mar 03, 2015 12:49 am

to kelwin the long sadhana of vajrayogini that was spoken about here , includes many things in it that you wouldnt need to do everyday . for instance it includes the text for the self empowerment, not necessary for everyday use .
also it has manyy preliminaries at the beginning which you could do in the first session everyday , and if youre not in a retreat you wouldnt need to do it , theres a long section of offerings after you have completed the mantra for the self visualization , that can be optional. if yyoure in a retreat you could do the front visualiztion in maybe an afternoon session but if youre doing it daily . you could just extract about one two pages from this long text , and just do that daily or use the one attached to the ngondro , your decision.

tsewang

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Kelwin
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Kelwin » Tue Mar 24, 2015 10:58 am

Thank you all for these wonderful answers, they really help clarify things for me and maybe others.

One more related question, if I may.. although maybe it shouldn't be in the Kagyu subforum:

Are there any Ati or Anu yoga style practices of the red dancing Vajrayogini as we know her in the Kagyu school? I have some experience with related Nyingma practices like Kurukulle and Thromo Nagmo, but have never seen an Ati sadhana of 'our' regular yogini. Would be interested (and I asked 2 lamas, who didn't know).
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KrisW
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by KrisW » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:14 pm

Kelwin wrote:Thank you all for these wonderful answers, they really help clarify things for me and maybe others.

One more related question, if I may.. although maybe it shouldn't be in the Kagyu subforum:

Are there any Ati or Anu yoga style practices of the red dancing Vajrayogini as we know her in the Kagyu school? I have some experience with related Nyingma practices like Kurukulle and Thromo Nagmo, but have never seen an Ati sadhana of 'our' regular yogini. Would be interested (and I asked 2 lamas, who didn't know).
Bump.
Is there a dancing Vajrayogini in Nyingma?
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heart
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by heart » Tue Nov 15, 2016 4:46 pm

Kelwin wrote:Thank you all for these wonderful answers, they really help clarify things for me and maybe others.

One more related question, if I may.. although maybe it shouldn't be in the Kagyu subforum:

Are there any Ati or Anu yoga style practices of the red dancing Vajrayogini as we know her in the Kagyu school? I have some experience with related Nyingma practices like Kurukulle and Thromo Nagmo, but have never seen an Ati sadhana of 'our' regular yogini. Would be interested (and I asked 2 lamas, who didn't know).
I received this, it was from the cycle Rigdzin Sokdrup by Lhatsun Namkha Jigme and also contains the famous Riwo Sangchö for example. The empowerment had a special (and pretty spectacular) tsa-lung part. The sadhana was very short.

/magnus
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ClearblueSky
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by ClearblueSky » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:11 pm

There are. Though I haven't personally seen long yidam sadhanas that revolve around that form per se, there are at least anuyoga practices in which you self visualize as a red, naked, dancing "dorje naljorma" (vajrayogini).

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by conebeckham » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:20 pm

ClearblueSky wrote:There are. Though I haven't personally seen long yidam sadhanas that revolve around that form per se, there are at least anuyoga practices in which you self visualize as a red, naked, dancing "dorje naljorma" (vajrayogini).
There are a lot of Nyingma terma of Vajrayogini/Varahi, in that particular iconographic form. If I recall, Nyangral's DoJo BumZang collection has at least one--not super-long, but not super-short, either, and there are others in the Rinchen Terdzo for sure.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:21 pm

Yumka Dechen Gyalmo is kind of an example, isn't she?
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by conebeckham » Tue Nov 15, 2016 6:30 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:Yumka Dechen Gyalmo is kind of an example, isn't she?
Varahi is part of that, but I think the discussion is more about sadhanas where she is the "main" iconographical representation. The actual "Dak Kye" or self-generation.....???
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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KrisW
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by KrisW » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:20 pm

Why would her left leg be bent? Does Nyingma have Varahi with left leg bent? :thinking:
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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by conebeckham » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:27 pm

Regarding the "dancing" form, One leg pulled up to the groin, the other "standing" or "extended," Nyingma tradition has practices using this form. All, to my knowledge, have the right leg bent upward, the left extended down to the ground, standing....the sole exception is the Drikung Phowa transmission, which has right leg extended, and left leg pulled up to the groin, as far as I know.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by dzogchungpa » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:43 pm

conebeckham wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Yumka Dechen Gyalmo is kind of an example, isn't she?
Varahi is part of that, but I think the discussion is more about sadhanas where she is the "main" iconographical representation. The actual "Dak Kye" or self-generation.....???
Well, I'm just learning about it but my understanding is that Yumka is Yeshe Tsogyal appearing in the form of Vajrayogini/varahi and one does does generate oneself as her form. Is that not correct? Maybe I don't understand what you are asking.
If you focus on an object, you are not meditating. - Dudjom Rinpoche

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by conebeckham » Tue Nov 15, 2016 8:08 pm

dzogchungpa wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:Yumka Dechen Gyalmo is kind of an example, isn't she?
Varahi is part of that, but I think the discussion is more about sadhanas where she is the "main" iconographical representation. The actual "Dak Kye" or self-generation.....???
Well, I'm just learning about it but my understanding is that Yumka is Yeshe Tsogyal appearing in the form of Vajrayogini/varahi and one does does generate oneself as her form. Is that not correct? Maybe I don't understand what you are asking.
Ah....I don't want to get into the specifics of the Yumkha Dechen Gyalmo practice....except to say she's standing on both legs, right?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by conebeckham » Wed Nov 16, 2016 12:10 am

http://terdzod.tsadra.org/index.php/Ter ... tab=Tsagli

From the Rinchen Terdzo, here's some examples of Tsagli, or "empowerment cards" for a cycle of Phagmo discovered by Jamyang Khyentse Wango, Khandro Sangwa Kun Du.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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KrisW
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by KrisW » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:09 pm

There was one last question.
Is the advancing posture of Vajrayogini (originally ) found only in the Sakya school?
rsz_tha0006__34095133641571812801280.jpg
rsz_tha0006__34095133641571812801280.jpg (197.88 KiB) Viewed 974 times
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by dzoki » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:09 pm

RikudouSennin wrote:There was one last question.
Is the advancing posture of Vajrayogini (originally ) found only in the Sakya school?rsz_tha0006__34095133641571812801280.jpg
Not really, there is a lineage coming from Rechungpa, that is practiced in Kagyu Schools, especially in Rechung and Drugpa Kagyu. The difference is that Kagyu version has a necklace of freshly cut heads:

http://www.drukpachoegon.info/lineage-p ... ogini.aspx
RikudouSennin wrote:
Kelwin wrote:Thank you all for these wonderful answers, they really help clarify things for me and maybe others.

One more related question, if I may.. although maybe it shouldn't be in the Kagyu subforum:

Are there any Ati or Anu yoga style practices of the red dancing Vajrayogini as we know her in the Kagyu school? I have some experience with related Nyingma practices like Kurukulle and Thromo Nagmo, but have never seen an Ati sadhana of 'our' regular yogini. Would be interested (and I asked 2 lamas, who didn't know).
Bump.
Is there a dancing Vajrayogini in Nyingma?
Of course there is, there are many termas featuring this kind of Vajrayogini, Dujom Tersar has one - in Khandro Thugtig, there is one in Dudul Dorje´s Terma, one in Namcho etc.

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by conebeckham » Fri Nov 18, 2016 6:20 pm

Shangpa Kagyu has practices that involve that particular form of VY as well. (Take a look at my avatar, for example!)
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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KrisW
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by KrisW » Sun Nov 20, 2016 4:00 pm

Ah, very interesting.

I may have been confused about the meaning of advancing posture, I was looking at a thangka were advancing posture was mentioned. Can anyone confirm if this is the same as the warrior posture, or is it just another name for dancing posture? Thanks.

Even though I have an interest in Vajrayogini, I know for certain I won't be practicing in a formal way. I really find the idea of this deity aesthetically pleasing.
The guru is the Buddha, the guru is the Dharma, likewise the guru is the Sangha, the guru is Śrī Heruka, the guru creates everything.

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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Fri Nov 25, 2016 3:11 am

Does anyone here have info about Vajravarahi (Dorje P'hakmo) or Krodhakali (Troma Nakmo) as practiced in the Drikung Kagyu tradition?

I'm aware there is a cycle of Dzogchen Troma sadhana in the Yangzab terma, but am particularly interested in the Mahãmudra portion of the lineage after some hints Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche dropped for me.

Can anyone confirm if Troma's seed-syllable is HUNG, whereas Varahi's is BAM? Or is it BAM, or perhaps even PHAT?
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དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

Post by Fortyeightvows » Mon Dec 12, 2016 5:26 pm

RikudouSennin wrote: Even though I have an interest in Vajrayogini, I know for certain I won't be practicing in a formal way.
Like they say 'never say never'

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