Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho
to kelwin the long sadhana of vajrayogini that was spoken about here , includes many things in it that you wouldnt need to do everyday . for instance it includes the text for the self empowerment, not necessary for everyday use .
also it has manyy preliminaries at the beginning which you could do in the first session everyday , and if youre not in a retreat you wouldnt need to do it , theres a long section of offerings after you have completed the mantra for the self visualization , that can be optional. if yyoure in a retreat you could do the front visualiztion in maybe an afternoon session but if youre doing it daily . you could just extract about one two pages from this long text , and just do that daily or use the one attached to the ngondro , your decision.
tsewang
also it has manyy preliminaries at the beginning which you could do in the first session everyday , and if youre not in a retreat you wouldnt need to do it , theres a long section of offerings after you have completed the mantra for the self visualization , that can be optional. if yyoure in a retreat you could do the front visualiztion in maybe an afternoon session but if youre doing it daily . you could just extract about one two pages from this long text , and just do that daily or use the one attached to the ngondro , your decision.
tsewang
Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho
Thank you all for these wonderful answers, they really help clarify things for me and maybe others.
One more related question, if I may.. although maybe it shouldn't be in the Kagyu subforum:
Are there any Ati or Anu yoga style practices of the red dancing Vajrayogini as we know her in the Kagyu school? I have some experience with related Nyingma practices like Kurukulle and Thromo Nagmo, but have never seen an Ati sadhana of 'our' regular yogini. Would be interested (and I asked 2 lamas, who didn't know).
One more related question, if I may.. although maybe it shouldn't be in the Kagyu subforum:
Are there any Ati or Anu yoga style practices of the red dancing Vajrayogini as we know her in the Kagyu school? I have some experience with related Nyingma practices like Kurukulle and Thromo Nagmo, but have never seen an Ati sadhana of 'our' regular yogini. Would be interested (and I asked 2 lamas, who didn't know).
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena
Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho
Bump.Kelwin wrote:Thank you all for these wonderful answers, they really help clarify things for me and maybe others.
One more related question, if I may.. although maybe it shouldn't be in the Kagyu subforum:
Are there any Ati or Anu yoga style practices of the red dancing Vajrayogini as we know her in the Kagyu school? I have some experience with related Nyingma practices like Kurukulle and Thromo Nagmo, but have never seen an Ati sadhana of 'our' regular yogini. Would be interested (and I asked 2 lamas, who didn't know).
Is there a dancing Vajrayogini in Nyingma?
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho
I received this, it was from the cycle Rigdzin Sokdrup by Lhatsun Namkha Jigme and also contains the famous Riwo Sangchö for example. The empowerment had a special (and pretty spectacular) tsa-lung part. The sadhana was very short.Kelwin wrote:Thank you all for these wonderful answers, they really help clarify things for me and maybe others.
One more related question, if I may.. although maybe it shouldn't be in the Kagyu subforum:
Are there any Ati or Anu yoga style practices of the red dancing Vajrayogini as we know her in the Kagyu school? I have some experience with related Nyingma practices like Kurukulle and Thromo Nagmo, but have never seen an Ati sadhana of 'our' regular yogini. Would be interested (and I asked 2 lamas, who didn't know).
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
- ClearblueSky
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
There are. Though I haven't personally seen long yidam sadhanas that revolve around that form per se, there are at least anuyoga practices in which you self visualize as a red, naked, dancing "dorje naljorma" (vajrayogini).
- conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
There are a lot of Nyingma terma of Vajrayogini/Varahi, in that particular iconographic form. If I recall, Nyangral's DoJo BumZang collection has at least one--not super-long, but not super-short, either, and there are others in the Rinchen Terdzo for sure.ClearblueSky wrote:There are. Though I haven't personally seen long yidam sadhanas that revolve around that form per se, there are at least anuyoga practices in which you self visualize as a red, naked, dancing "dorje naljorma" (vajrayogini).
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Yumka Dechen Gyalmo is kind of an example, isn't she?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
- conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Varahi is part of that, but I think the discussion is more about sadhanas where she is the "main" iconographical representation. The actual "Dak Kye" or self-generation.....???dzogchungpa wrote:Yumka Dechen Gyalmo is kind of an example, isn't she?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Why would her left leg be bent? Does Nyingma have Varahi with left leg bent?
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
- conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Regarding the "dancing" form, One leg pulled up to the groin, the other "standing" or "extended," Nyingma tradition has practices using this form. All, to my knowledge, have the right leg bent upward, the left extended down to the ground, standing....the sole exception is the Drikung Phowa transmission, which has right leg extended, and left leg pulled up to the groin, as far as I know.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- dzogchungpa
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Well, I'm just learning about it but my understanding is that Yumka is Yeshe Tsogyal appearing in the form of Vajrayogini/varahi and one does does generate oneself as her form. Is that not correct? Maybe I don't understand what you are asking.conebeckham wrote:Varahi is part of that, but I think the discussion is more about sadhanas where she is the "main" iconographical representation. The actual "Dak Kye" or self-generation.....???dzogchungpa wrote:Yumka Dechen Gyalmo is kind of an example, isn't she?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
- conebeckham
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- Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Ah....I don't want to get into the specifics of the Yumkha Dechen Gyalmo practice....except to say she's standing on both legs, right?dzogchungpa wrote:Well, I'm just learning about it but my understanding is that Yumka is Yeshe Tsogyal appearing in the form of Vajrayogini/varahi and one does does generate oneself as her form. Is that not correct? Maybe I don't understand what you are asking.conebeckham wrote:Varahi is part of that, but I think the discussion is more about sadhanas where she is the "main" iconographical representation. The actual "Dak Kye" or self-generation.....???dzogchungpa wrote:Yumka Dechen Gyalmo is kind of an example, isn't she?
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
http://terdzod.tsadra.org/index.php/Ter ... tab=Tsagli
From the Rinchen Terdzo, here's some examples of Tsagli, or "empowerment cards" for a cycle of Phagmo discovered by Jamyang Khyentse Wango, Khandro Sangwa Kun Du.
From the Rinchen Terdzo, here's some examples of Tsagli, or "empowerment cards" for a cycle of Phagmo discovered by Jamyang Khyentse Wango, Khandro Sangwa Kun Du.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
There was one last question.
Is the advancing posture of Vajrayogini (originally ) found only in the Sakya school?
Is the advancing posture of Vajrayogini (originally ) found only in the Sakya school?
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Not really, there is a lineage coming from Rechungpa, that is practiced in Kagyu Schools, especially in Rechung and Drugpa Kagyu. The difference is that Kagyu version has a necklace of freshly cut heads:RikudouSennin wrote:There was one last question.
Is the advancing posture of Vajrayogini (originally ) found only in the Sakya school?rsz_tha0006__34095133641571812801280.jpg
http://www.drukpachoegon.info/lineage-p ... ogini.aspx
Of course there is, there are many termas featuring this kind of Vajrayogini, Dujom Tersar has one - in Khandro Thugtig, there is one in Dudul Dorje´s Terma, one in Namcho etc.RikudouSennin wrote:Bump.Kelwin wrote:Thank you all for these wonderful answers, they really help clarify things for me and maybe others.
One more related question, if I may.. although maybe it shouldn't be in the Kagyu subforum:
Are there any Ati or Anu yoga style practices of the red dancing Vajrayogini as we know her in the Kagyu school? I have some experience with related Nyingma practices like Kurukulle and Thromo Nagmo, but have never seen an Ati sadhana of 'our' regular yogini. Would be interested (and I asked 2 lamas, who didn't know).
Is there a dancing Vajrayogini in Nyingma?
- conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Shangpa Kagyu has practices that involve that particular form of VY as well. (Take a look at my avatar, for example!)
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Ah, very interesting.
I may have been confused about the meaning of advancing posture, I was looking at a thangka were advancing posture was mentioned. Can anyone confirm if this is the same as the warrior posture, or is it just another name for dancing posture? Thanks.
Even though I have an interest in Vajrayogini, I know for certain I won't be practicing in a formal way. I really find the idea of this deity aesthetically pleasing.
I may have been confused about the meaning of advancing posture, I was looking at a thangka were advancing posture was mentioned. Can anyone confirm if this is the same as the warrior posture, or is it just another name for dancing posture? Thanks.
Even though I have an interest in Vajrayogini, I know for certain I won't be practicing in a formal way. I really find the idea of this deity aesthetically pleasing.
The profound path of the master.
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
-- Virūpa, Vajra Lines
- Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Does anyone here have info about Vajravarahi (Dorje P'hakmo) or Krodhakali (Troma Nakmo) as practiced in the Drikung Kagyu tradition?
I'm aware there is a cycle of Dzogchen Troma sadhana in the Yangzab terma, but am particularly interested in the Mahãmudra portion of the lineage after some hints Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche dropped for me.
Can anyone confirm if Troma's seed-syllable is HUNG, whereas Varahi's is BAM? Or is it BAM, or perhaps even PHAT?
I'm aware there is a cycle of Dzogchen Troma sadhana in the Yangzab terma, but am particularly interested in the Mahãmudra portion of the lineage after some hints Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche dropped for me.
Can anyone confirm if Troma's seed-syllable is HUNG, whereas Varahi's is BAM? Or is it BAM, or perhaps even PHAT?
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme
དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
Like they say 'never say never'RikudouSennin wrote: Even though I have an interest in Vajrayogini, I know for certain I won't be practicing in a formal way.
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools
I can personally attest to there being red Vajravarahi in the Namchö terma, as Khenchen Tsewang Gyatso Rinpoche (one of Kyabje Penor Rinpoche's senior khenpos) has given this wang alongside the lung for the Namchö Kusali in the ngöndro.
I'd also like to bump this thread and ask again for more information about Tröma Nagmo (a.k.a. Black Varahi) specifically. The only source I can find about her origins is a single page on HAR that states her practice was brought to Tibet by Phadampa Sangye. Obviously the most likely lineage for her would be thru 3rd Karmapa Rangjung Dorje, who was the main figure responsible for integrating the Chöd practice lineage into Kagyu, but this is still only a guess...
"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme
དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ