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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:52 pm
by lorem
Karma_Yeshe wrote:Isn't the real idea behind the way Vajravahari's feet are shown that she is dancing?
To my understanding yes. It was the Drikung Vajravarahi with left leg lifted and why. Feel it's used because of conditioning. As soon as you visualize that form you are in phowa mode--

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:06 pm
by Lingpupa
lelopa wrote: i think the sadhana of her was created by a sharmapa
That would be one of the short versions, just two or three pages or so long. The full regular sadhana (though to be sure there is more than one) was composed by the 9th Karmapa.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 4:55 pm
by lelopa
Lingpupa wrote:
lelopa wrote: i think the sadhana of her was created by a sharmapa
That would be one of the short versions, just two or three pages or so long. The full regular sadhana (though to be sure there is more than one) was composed by the 9th Karmapa.
thx
i was told by a german practitioner that the kamtsang phagmo came from a vision of (the 5th, or 6th?) sharmapa and he was the first who wrote a sadhana.
but it could be wrong

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 6:01 pm
by conebeckham
Kamtsang Yogini/Varahi is from Marpa--though the main sadhana was written by Karmapa Thongwa Donden (6th Karmapa), he incorporated things from Marpa, and previous Karmapas--esp. DuSum Khyenpa and Rangjung Dorje. Pawo Rinpoche wrote the most-used commentaries and liturgies for the retreat practices.

Not to spill too many beans, but the Kamtsang practice includes the Om Sum Ma and the HaRiNiSa mantra....

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:10 pm
by lelopa
conebeckham wrote:.................

Not to spill too many beans, but the Kamtsang practice includes the Om Sum Ma and the HaRiNiSa mantra....
i have two different sadhanas: one with the harinsa-mantra (at navel/secret chakra)
and in the other sadhana is the om-sum is in the heart, etc...
not both mantras in one sadhana.
maybe inner practice & outer practice, or something like that :shrug:

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 7:25 pm
by conebeckham
The most common texts relating to Kamtsang Yogini are the "full" sadhana, the one done in Kamtsang monasteries monthly--this is the one I refer to as written by Thongwa Donden. It's about 120 pages long in Tibetan pecha. It was translated by Trungpa, and is what the Dharmadhatu folks use. It's also the basis for monthly tsoks, self-empowerments, etc. and is the basis for three year retreat practice, when appended by some additional liturgy and instructive texts.

The second most common text is the short KyeRim which is actually extracted from the Kamtsang Ngondro. This is a common short daily practice, a commitment practice, and it comes after the Guru Yoga. Just a few pages, in Tibetan maybe 3 or so. This was also translated by a few Dharma Centers/Institutions--some include it in their ngondro text, some have translated it as a separate text, and some leave it out entirely.

Both of these texts have the HaRiNiSa mantra, and when one does the full sadhana in retreat, one also does Om Sum Ma mantra. You need the instructions, etc.

A previous Shamar Rinpoche wrote a GyunKhyer based on bits of the full sadhana, and bits of the Ngnondro Kyerim. It's about twice as long as the Ngondro KyeRim text, and includes Chopa Jinlab, Refuge, 7 branch prayer, offerings, etc. and also includes a short torma offering.

There are other Vajrayogini/Varahi sadhanas written by other Kagyu Lamas,of course. But these are the main ones.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Tue Nov 04, 2014 9:15 pm
by Konchog1
H is a wonderful mantra. Causes pleasant feelings, one gets into the zone quickly and you start singing it before you know it.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 3:01 am
by lorem
Image

Beautiful. Here by His Holiness.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:03 am
by conebeckham
Yes, he's a wonderful artist, eh? Then again, a prior Karmapa instituted a whole new style (Karma Gadri tradition). So, not surprising!

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 5:19 am
by lorem
Yes I'always have a problem visualizing the silk. But His Holiness detailed the silk so you could see how it is intertwined and follow easily.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 7:17 am
by lelopa
@ conebeckham

:thanks:

:cheers:

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Wed Nov 05, 2014 10:13 am
by Lingpupa
Lingpupa wrote:... was composed by the 9th Karmapa.
Sorry, thanks Cone for correcting me. 6th.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 12:20 pm
by togg
Are Vajrayogini and Vajravarahi identical? :shrug:
( And happy Losar!!! )

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:46 pm
by Lingpupa
togg wrote:Are Vajrayogini and Vajravarahi identical?
Not quite. Vajravarahi has the sow's head protruding from her head (usually from the top, but can be by her ear, I believe). Vajrayogini does not. But they are very close, and there are practice cycles in which she appears as one form at one stage, the other form at another. Vajrayogini, I suppose, is slightly more "generic" (though I don't like to use such a dismissive word of her), while Vajravarahi could be thought of as a special form.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:53 pm
by Malcolm
togg wrote:Are Vajrayogini and Vajravarahi identical? :shrug:
( And happy Losar!!! )

Yes, in fact they are the same deity, same mantra, etc.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:33 pm
by Lingpupa
Malcolm wrote:
togg wrote:Are Vajrayogini and Vajravarahi identical? :shrug:
( And happy Losar!!! )

Yes, in fact they are the same deity, same mantra, etc.
Almost. Not interchangeable under all circumstances.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:30 pm
by Malcolm
Lingpupa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
togg wrote:Are Vajrayogini and Vajravarahi identical? :shrug:
( And happy Losar!!! )

Yes, in fact they are the same deity, same mantra, etc.
Almost. Not interchangeable under all circumstances.
In gSar ma, they definitely are interchangeable.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:51 am
by Lingpupa
Malcolm wrote: In gSar ma, they definitely are interchangeable.
Perhaps. Maybe even often. But not quite always.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:20 pm
by Malcolm
Lingpupa wrote:
Malcolm wrote: In gSar ma, they definitely are interchangeable.
Perhaps. Maybe even often. But not quite always.
Always, they both come from the Laghusamvara Tantra, and no distinction is made between Yoginī and Vārāhī, Vajrayoginī is Vajravārāhī and vice verse. The only difference between them is the source of the lineage, but not the nature of the deity.

Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Posted: Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:52 pm
by Lingpupa
Malcolm wrote: Always, they both come from the Laghusamvara Tantra.
Sure. But Vajravarahi has the sow's head, Vajrayogini generally not. Whether you call them the same or close but different is up to the way you want to define your terms. It's not very important.

You can argue by that method that she is the same deity as Chakrasamvara. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't - but they look different. The rest is little games.

So not always in every case, just many.