Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa schools

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Malcolm
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 23, 2015 2:34 pm

Lingpupa wrote:
Malcolm wrote: Always, they both come from the Laghusamvara Tantra.
Sure. But Vajravarahi has the sow's head, Vajrayogini generally not. Whether you call them the same or close but different is up to the way you want to define your terms. It's not very important.

You can argue by that method that she is the same deity as Chakrasamvara. Maybe she is, maybe she isn't - but they look different. The rest is little games.

So not always in every case, just many.
The presence or absence of the sows head is not relevant. What is relevant is that the mantras are the same, the source tantra is the same, and so on.

Also, Yoginī is the essence of Cakrasamvara. When one practices Yoginī, Samvara is included automatically. The arrangement of the mandala is the same, the manner of the abhisamaya is the same, based on the Yoginīsaṃcarya Tantra, so on and so forth.

Also, when in union with Cakrasamvara, Vajravārāhī is never pictured with a sow's head, as she is always, say, when she is the consort of Hayagriva in Nyingma Tantras.

This is why I am willing to allow that Vajravārāhī in Nyingma is not necessarily interchangeable with Vajrayoginī in Sarma — the Vajravārāhī mantras in Nyingma tantra are not similar at all with the Yoginī/Vārāhī mantras from the Laghusamvara.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Lingpupa
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Lingpupa » Mon Feb 23, 2015 3:47 pm

Dear Malcolm,

I can well imagine that you'd like the last word, and that's fine with me. However, from the practitioner's point of view, the situation is really quite simple. Vajravarahi/Vajrayogini plays a part in the two practices of which I have the longest experience. Both of them are from the Kagyu tradition, neither of them is particularly obscure. In one of them she is called Vajravarahi, has a sow's head, and has one mantra. In the other, she is called Vajrayogini, does not have the sow's head, and has a slightly different mantra. I'm sure you appreciate that it would be completely wrong to interchange either the appearances or the mantras between these practices. For my money, that makes the two occurrences slightly different.

If you want to argue that they are nevertheless identical (which was the original poster's question, as I recall, although somebody seems to have manipulated the threads), while being somewhat different, then please be my guest.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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Malcolm
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:23 pm

Lingpupa wrote:Dear Malcolm,

I can well imagine that you'd like the last word, and that's fine with me. However, from the practitioner's point of view, the situation is really quite simple. Vajravarahi/Vajrayogini plays a part in the two practices of which I have the longest experience. Both of them are from the Kagyu tradition, neither of them is particularly obscure. In one of them she is called Vajravarahi, has a sow's head, and has one mantra. In the other, she is called Vajrayogini, does not have the sow's head, and has a slightly different mantra. I'm sure you appreciate that it would be completely wrong to interchange either the appearances or the mantras between these practices. For my money, that makes the two occurrences slightly different.

If you want to argue that they are nevertheless identical (which was the original poster's question, as I recall, although somebody seems to have manipulated the threads), while being somewhat different, then please be my guest.
The difference lies in whether the essence and near essence mantras are combined, as in the Om gsum mantra, or whether they are kept separately, as in some other sadhanas and transmissions.

The main point however is that we have two basic forms of one deity. For example, there is a Cakrasamvara in his Sahaja form, 12 armed form, up to a thousand armed form. They are all different forms of the same deity. Likewise, whether we are talking about Naro Dakini, Indradakini (Vārāhī), Maitri Dakini, or Vajravārāhī they are all different forms of the same deity.

In the sadhanas we have in the bstan 'gyur we frequently see this:

/bod skad du/rdo rje phag mo'i sgrub thabs/dpal rdo rje rnal 'byor ma la phyag 'tshal lo/

/bod skad du/rdo rje rnal 'byor ma'i sgrub thabs zhes bya ba/rje btsun dpal rdo rje phag mo la phyag 'tshal lo/


In Tibetan: Vajravārāhīsadhana. Homage to Vajrayoginī.

In Tibetan: Vajrayoginīsadana. Homage to Lady Śrī Vajravārāhī


Or in the Khyāvajravārāhyabhidhanāta-tantrottara-vārāhi-abhibodhiya-nāma
  • Arising in the center of that is the queen,
    Vārāhī, Vajrayoginī.
My point being is that these two terms are both used for the same deity, regardless of minor differences in mantra formation or appearances.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:20 pm

In some sense, Vajrayogini and Vajravarahi are the same. But in the practice tradition of the Kamtsang, we have Outer, Inner, and Secret Accomplishment practices, and the mantras, visualizations, and other methods differ between these three "levels." I am not going to go into more detail, but I think it is correct to embrace both points of view, depending on one's perspective--Vajrayogini and Vajravarahi are both the same, and different.

Also, in Kamtsang, the "arrangement of the mandala" differs greatly between Vajrayogini and Cakrasamvara. But that's a tangential point. As far as I know, all the various Varahi and Yogini forms in Sarma do stem from the Cakrasamvara tantras, and as Malcolm pointed out, the practice of Yogini does contain the essence of Cakrasamvara practice-but as this is the main yidam practice of the Kamtsang, it's also reflected as the self-generation in many other sadhanas and methods. Details may differ--and not merely the presence or absence of the sow's head--but these details are also better left alone here, I think.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:28 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Also, in Kamtsang, the "arrangement of the mandala" differs greatly between Vajrayogini and Cakrasamvara.
The full mandala of Yogini has 37 deities. The full mandala of Cakrasamvara has 62 deities. What is the difference? The absence of the heroes. When you subtract the 25 heroes from 62 you come up with 37. Then of course, the essential or mandala of great bliss of Cakrasamvara is Cakramsavara/Vārāhī and the four core dākinīs, Lāma and so on. When you are dealing with just the core deities of Vārāhī, then you have Vārāhī, Lāma, etc. Or you can take it down to one deity, like Naropa's Khecari. But all in all, even the single deity Naropa's Khecari actually contains the entire 62 deity Samvara mandala.

Incidentally, any mantra with ha ri ni sa in it has a Nyingma origin since that mantra is entirely absent in any Sarma tantra.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:56 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:
Also, in Kamtsang, the "arrangement of the mandala" differs greatly between Vajrayogini and Cakrasamvara.
The full mandala of Yogini has 37 deities. The full mandala of Cakrasamvara has 62 deities. What is the difference? The absence of the heroes. When you subtract the 25 heroes from 62 you come up with 37. Then of course, the essential or mandala of great bliss of Cakrasamvara is Cakramsavara/Vārāhī and the four core dākinīs, Lāma and so on. When you are dealing with just the core deities of Vārāhī, then you have Vārāhī, Lāma, etc. Or you can take it down to one deity, like Naropa's Khecari. But all in all, even the single deity Naropa's Khecari actually contains the entire 62 deity Samvara mandala.
I don't disagree, but in the specific Kamtsang traditions of Phagmo and Demchok Lha Nga, the names of the core deities differ--both mandalas explicitly have five deities (if you count Demchok/Phagmo as one), but you don't find Lama, Khandarohi, etc. in Phagmo practice by name. You can argue that Lama and KarmaDakini are the same, if you'd like...Also, when you said "arrangement of the mandala," it depends on what you mean--the actual arrangement of the Shrine mandala articles, or the sand mandala, painted mandala, or the visualization of the deities during practice, or the body mandala, etc. These details do differ, of course.
Incidentally, any mantra with ha ri ni sa in it has a Nyingma origin since that mantra is entirely absent in any Sarma tantra.
I will have to take your word for that, and I do find it interesting. There are so many different sadhanas and practice cycles associated with Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini/Varahi, I can't imagine anyone being accomplished in the details of all--though of course, if one is truly accomplished in one, that suffices. Knowing the details of the individual methods is an interesting side-line, and one I find fascinating and inspiring, personally.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:16 pm

conebeckham wrote: I will have to take your word for that, and I do find it interesting. There are so many different sadhanas and practice cycles associated with Cakrasamvara and Vajrayogini/Varahi, I can't imagine anyone being accomplished in the details of all--though of course, if one is truly accomplished in one, that suffices. Knowing the details of the individual methods is an interesting side-line, and one I find fascinating and inspiring, personally.
Actually, there are two related texts in the bstan 'gyur that have mantras with ha ri ni sa:

dpal thugs rje chen po'i dbang bskur ba'i man ngag rab tu byed pa zhes bya ba attributed to Jalandhara and supposedly translated by a Tibetan, Prajñākīrti from the oral transmission by the Indian Vajrapāṇi (Gya gar phyag na rdo rje) of Matripa's hand written copy of the text.

The other example is 'jig rten dbang phyug gsang ba'i sgrub thabs termed an oral lineage from Siddhirajni, no listed translator.



And there are no Sarma tantras with these mantras.
Last edited by Malcolm on Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:24 pm

Malcolm, that's interesting--from the titles, it would seem those texts relate to Gyalwa Gyamtso, perhaps? I seem to recall Jalandara from a lineage prayer....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:59 pm

conebeckham wrote:Malcolm, that's interesting--from the titles, it would seem those texts relate to Gyalwa Gyamtso, perhaps? I seem to recall Jalandara from a lineage prayer....
Gyalwa Gyatso also has no named text in the bka' 'gyur nor the bstan 'gyur.

However a quick search shows that one version of Gyalwa Gyatso uses the mantra in the Siddhirajni text. Another version, in the bcom ldan 'das 'phags pa 'jig rten dbang phyug rgyal ba rgya mtsho'i sgrub dkyil dbang chog dang bcas pa thar pa'i lam chen zhes bya ba found in the Sakya Rgyud sde kun btus shows the mantra in given in the first text I described above. So it seems that this form of Avalokiteśvara practice got its nickname in Tibet.

The rgyud sde kun btus lists two different lineages for the practice.

First, goes from Vajradhara, to Avalokiteśvara, Padmavajra the junior, Jalandhara, Vajrapani, Maitripa, Vajrapani, Sumatikirti, Rechungpa, etc. — I think this is the one practiced in Kagyu.

The second, from Amitabha, to Avalokiteśvara, Mitrajoki, Śrīputra, Minyag Dragpa Rinchen and so on. This one does not have an important lineage.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:42 pm

Kamtsang practice is based on Karma Chagme's commentaries, mainly, and he sought out all the transmissions of Gyalwa Gyamtso--both "kama" and "Terma," if I understand it correctly. But Rechungpa also condensed several streams of transmission-- It's my understanding that the first lineage you listed, to Rechungpa, is counted as the main stream for the Kamtsang GyalGyam Lha Gu. There's a second "revealed" lineage includes Amitabha, to Avalokiteshvara, to Sangwa Yeshe Dakini, to Hayagriva, to Guru Pema...this came down to Trisong Dutsen and Yeshe Tsogyal, who hid them, until they were recovered by Nyang--these were also eventually passsed to Rechungpa as well, from a Mikyo Dorje--not the 8th Karmapa, though.

From Rechungpa, who condensed the two lineages, the transmission passed to Sangre Repa, to Drogon Rechen (1st Situpa), to Karma Pakshi.

The Ha Ri Ni Sa syllables are found in the main Kamtsang sadhana of GyalGyam, which of course includes Phagmo as Yum, and also in Kamtsang Vajrayogini--though the Om Sum Ma, and the Vairochanaye mantra without the Ha Ri Ni Sa, are also there as well.

I think the earliest complete written liturgy for Demchok, Phagmo, and GyalGyam is found in Third Karmapa's writings--though possible the Kamtsang-specific practices have earlier written texts, I don't know. For Vajrayogini, the main Kamtsang sadhana was written by KarmapaTongwa Donden, but of course Tibetan sadhana "compositions" are often constructed with parts of prior sadhanas or existing liturgy--in our Kamtsang tradition, parts of this main sadhana are said to come from Marpa's writings, etc.

The syllables "Ha Ri Ni Sa" are also found in Gonkar Yishin Norbu, which came to Tibet via Maitripa to Khyungpo Naljor. It might be interesting to look at the sources of this practice as well, though of course it's a bit more tangential to the main practice of Phagmo than either the Demchok Tantras or even the GyalGyam traditions.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Malcolm
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Malcolm » Mon Feb 23, 2015 9:20 pm

conebeckham wrote:these were also eventually passsed to Rechungpa as well, from a Mikyo Dorje--not the 8th Karmapa, though.

Rechungpa's dates are 1085-- 1161. Nyang ral, born in 1124, would have been 37 when Raschung passed. Nyang had a student called man lung pa mi bskyod rdo rje, birth dates unknown, so it is possible that Raschungpa received this transmission from this Mikyo Dorje. Nyang's lineage, the five deity mandala, has the mantra found in the Siddhirajñī text.
Buddhahood in This Life
འ༔ ཨ༔ ཧ༔ ཤ༔ ས༔ མ༔


[A]nything at all that is well spoken is the word of the Buddha.

-- Ārya-adhyāśaya-sañcodana-nāma-mahāyāna-sūtra

The different sūtras in accord with the emptiness
taught by the Sugata are definitive in meaning;
One can understand that all of those Dharmas in
which a sentient being, individual, or person are taught are provisional in meaning.

-- Samadhirāja Sūtra

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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Mon Feb 23, 2015 10:28 pm

Malcolm wrote:
conebeckham wrote:these were also eventually passsed to Rechungpa as well, from a Mikyo Dorje--not the 8th Karmapa, though.

Rechungpa's dates are 1085-- 1161. Nyang ral, born in 1124, would have been 37 when Raschung passed. Nyang had a student called man lung pa mi bskyod rdo rje, birth dates unknown, so it is possible that Raschungpa received this transmission from this Mikyo Dorje. Nyang's lineage, the five deity mandala, has the mantra found in the Siddhirajñī text.
The Five Deity mandala is also part of the Kamtsang practice, but it's (usually) the nine deity mandala that is the focus in retreat. Anyway, it is interesting to speculate that the GyalGyam texts, and the associated mantras, may have influenced the Kamtsang Phagmo practice, to the point of "modifying" the mantra! Who knows? I'm not such a scholar. I will only say that in my opinion, the Yogini cycle of the Kamtsang lineage is profound and wonderful. So, too, is the Kamtsang Demchok Lha Nga, and the Kamtsang GyalGyam practices as well, from my limited experience.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Kelwin » Fri Feb 27, 2015 11:53 am

Thanks guys for the interesting posts above. Could you maybe say something about the different available practices in the Karma Kagyu lineages? I'm aware of an extremely concise practice of yogini (just a few pages), and an extremely long one (usually only done in long term retreat, many tormas, etc).

Is there any 'medium' sadhana that is possible for lay-men who mingle practice and a working life? Thank you!
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Lingpupa » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:42 pm

Kelwin wrote: Is there any 'medium' sadhana that is possible for lay-men who mingle practice and a working life? Thank you!
Hi Kelwin,

The "extremely long one", as you call it, comprises several quite distinct sections, and some people do only a certain subset on a regular basis, perhaps doing more (or all) on special occasions. But that is something that will depend on your teacher. If you have (or find) a teacher to work with you on it in that much detail you may get something suitable.

I'm not aware of a sadhana that would take a comfortable hour or so to do completely, but there are others here who know more. (Cone?)
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:57 pm

In Kamtsang there are two popular texts--the full sadhana which is about 120 pages in Tibetan is the framework for monthly tsoks, and also for 3 year retreat practice, when it is appended by additional liturgy and visualizations, etc., corresponding to outer, inner, and secret practice levels; and the "short text" which is extracted from 9th Karmapa's Ngondro, actually.

I have also seen a text which combined a few of the sections from the full sadhana with the self-visualization from the "short text," as well. It's on the web somewhere--I think TBRC has it as part of a "Sheldon" or "Chocho" collection, but I can't recall which. It's Tibetan only, though, at TBRC--perhaps someone out there has translated or phoneticized it.

Aside from the two basic texts referred to above, there are a wide variety of texts relating to the practice, some of which are used in retreat, like the Jinsek, etc. and I think you can find some other sadhanas in collected works of the various Karmapas. 3rd Karmapa, Rangjung Dorje, has one if I recall, but it's not part of the mainstream tradition.

In English, Chogyam Trungpa/Dharmadhatu have an English transalation of the full sadhana, and the short daily practice from Ngondro. www.kdk.org has a pecha-format text of the daily practice for sale, or did at one point--Tibetan, English, and phonetics.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Kelwin
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Kelwin » Sat Feb 28, 2015 11:01 am

Thanks Lingpupa and Cone!

So, if you're interested in practicing Kamtsang Vajrayogini, like OP.. what are your options?

The full sadhana is really only possible in retreat, and no option in daily life. The concise sadhana is an option, but really extremely concise and maybe too concise for some. Often, it is also required to have done the full sadhana before using the concise one after retreat (but not always).

Heard about the Trungpa/Dharmadhatu sangha having a version that takes only about one hour. Probably a selection from the full sadhana, like you mentioned exists in Tibetan (my skill in Tibetan is unfortunately not close to being able to read things on TBRC). If anyone knows more about that one, translated in English, I'd be interested to hear about it.

It seems to me, that maybe the Guru yoga practices of the Kamtsang, which often include yogini, are the most ideal way of practicing her in daily life context, no?
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Lingpupa » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:55 am

Kelwin wrote: It seems to me, that maybe the Guru yoga practices of the Kamtsang, which often include yogini, are the most ideal way of practicing her in daily life context, no?
Go, Karma Pakshi, go! That's my tip FWIW.
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:10 pm

Kelwin wrote:Thanks Lingpupa and Cone!

So, if you're interested in practicing Kamtsang Vajrayogini, like OP.. what are your options?
The full sadhana is really only possible in retreat, and no option in daily life. The concise sadhana is an option, but really extremely concise and maybe too concise for some. Often, it is also required to have done the full sadhana before using the concise one after retreat (but not always)./
The full sadhana can be practiced at home, in daily life--if one is serious and ready, one can practice this daily, doing two sessions, or three, or four. You can also add shorter or longer retreats to this as well. Each session would need to be two hours long on average in order to get through all the liturgy and accumulate some number of mantras. Usually, after the approximations of the outer and inner practices are completed, you'd do a Drupcho, which would have to be in some sort of full time retreat for a week or so. And there's a Jinsek as well, to end the retreat. This would be one's full time major practice commitment for a period of years, at least, if you were doing it at home, in daily life.
Heard about the Trungpa/Dharmadhatu sangha having a version that takes only about one hour. Probably a selection from the full sadhana, like you mentioned exists in Tibetan (my skill in Tibetan is unfortunately not close to being able to read things on TBRC). If anyone knows more about that one, translated in English, I'd be interested to hear about it.

It seems to me, that maybe the Guru yoga practices of the Kamtsang, which often include yogini, are the most ideal way of practicing her in daily life context, no?
Dharmadhatu folks practice the complete sadhana in English--but they don't practice the various "outer/inner/secret" levels, I think. Also the Dak Zhug (Self-Empowerment/Entering the Mandala) and Tsok may not be done daily. If you leave those out, and leave out the "In Front" and Vase" methods, an hour is not unreasonable, though it would maybe be a bit rushed--and not sure how many mantras one would be able to accumulate in a session.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Kelwin
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by Kelwin » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:20 pm

Lingpupa wrote:
Kelwin wrote: It seems to me, that maybe the Guru yoga practices of the Kamtsang, which often include yogini, are the most ideal way of practicing her in daily life context, no?
Go, Karma Pakshi, go! That's my tip FWIW.
Sure yeah! Was thinking of other practices myself, like Milarepa and especially the Guru yoga of the 8th Karmapa. The OP was a student in the Diamondway after all, which means he'll probably do that practice after ngondro, and connect to Yogini and Demchok through it.
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

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conebeckham
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Re: Differences between Vajravarahi practice in Kagyupa scho

Post by conebeckham » Mon Mar 02, 2015 8:37 pm

All those LaDrups--Pakshi, Mila, etc. are great daily practices, as is Thun shi Lamai Naljor, sure!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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