Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

smcj
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by smcj » Mon Jun 30, 2014 4:54 pm

JKhedrup wrote:The black crown you mean?

Is it at Rumtek?
I think he means Rumtek itself is the property dispute.

I've not paid close attention to the issue of the Crown, but the issue has been on my radar to a degree. To the best of my knowledge the whereabouts of the Crown is either unknown or not been made public. There was some sort of court ordered inventory of artifacts at Rumtek at one point, but it got complicated and I couldn't figure out what happened with it.

In the incredibly complicated backdrop of Tibetan history I've heard that there were actually two Black Crowns. There was the original, which is the one that made it out of Tibet, and then there was a second one that I think is at Tsurphu. But I'm a little unclear on the details. This is all firmly in the murkiness of Tibetan culture from my perspective.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by conebeckham » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:16 pm

Jinzang wrote:The disposition of thhe Rumtek monastery will be settled in civil court. But beyond that, Orgyen Thrinley Dorje's travels have been restricted by the Indian government. The group that currently controls the Rumtek monastery would be glad to have him visit, but the Indian government has not permitted it. That is what this petition is about, getting the Indian government to permit Orgyen Thrinley Dorje to visit Sikkim and Rumtek.
The reason this entered the civil arena in the first place is because those that filed it understand the Indian system of property and estate, where male heirs are entitled to inheritence rights. I haven't kept up with all of the details, but I did read many of the initial pleadings, and the situation has certainly now changed. In my understanding, it continues to drag on, and most Indian politicians are reluctant to assert that the legal bases of inheritance apply in the case of Tibetan "sucession," which is really an unknown, and unique, from a legal POV.

The vast majority of Sikkimese people want Karmapa Orgyen Tinley Dorje installed at Rumtek. That has been the case for years, and has not changed. These "declarations" and "resolutions" are nothing more than attempts to keep this issue in the public's eye, frankly. But I don't see any change in the ability of the Indian Gov't. to allow anyone claiming the Karmapa title to establish himself at Rumtek, or even visit, any time soon, even if the civil case is dismissed. But again, I am not privy to what's really happening.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Grigoris
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Grigoris » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:41 pm

I don't think that either Karmapa will be returning to Rumtek before the property rights issue is laid to rest.
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smcj
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by smcj » Mon Jun 30, 2014 5:45 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:I don't think that either Karmapa will be returning to Rumtek before the property rights issue is laid to rest.
LOL, I don't think O.T. is going there even if he wins the court case. There's too much paranoia about him being the Manchurian Candidate for India to accommodate the wishes of a bunch of Tibetan monks and western ex-hippies.

But then again my predictions about the future are never reliable. I thought payphones and mapmakers were safe investments. :o
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Mon Jun 30, 2014 9:43 pm

smcj wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:I don't think that either Karmapa will be returning to Rumtek before the property rights issue is laid to rest.
LOL, I don't think O.T. is going there even if he wins the court case. There's too much paranoia about him being the Manchurian Candidate for India to accommodate the wishes of a bunch of Tibetan monks and western ex-hippies.

But then again my predictions about the future are never reliable. I thought payphones and mapmakers were safe investments. :o
I think it's more than Western ex-hippies and Tibetan monks. There is big support among ordinary Sikkimese for his return. I think the local politicians are also pushing an economic argument that forsees the growth of local tourist industry with the return of the Karmapa to Rumtek to the benefit of the region as a whole. That is likely to get some hearing from the Central Govt. Whether it is enough to outweigh its security fears is another matter though.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by smcj » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:11 am

A brief mention in a Sikkimese newspaper, just one issue of many discussed in a laundry list:

http://voiceofsikkim.com/cm-calls-on-union-ministers/

Talking about the socio-political and economic rights of the people of Sikkim, the Chief Minister informed the Union Minister that there are some issues which are still pending with the Government of India. In the connection, the Chief Minister reiterated the State Government’s persistent demand for providing early reservation of seats in the Sikkim Legislative Assembly for the Limboo and Tamang communities and granting permission to 17th Gyalwa Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje to take seat at Rumtek Monastery. The Chief Minister also placed the State Government’s demand for inclusion of left out ethnic Sikkimese Nepali communities in the list of Schedule Tribe. The Union Home Minister gave a patient hearing to the demands placed by the Chief Minister. On the matter of His Holiness Karmapa, the Union Minister assured to consider the matter positively to allow His Holiness to take seat at Rumtek Monastery at the earliest.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:25 am

Seems this could be on the agenda again. I'll believe it when I see it.

http://www.phayul.com/news/article.aspx ... 3f&t=1&c=1
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:54 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:
smcj wrote:
Sherab Dorje wrote:I don't think that either Karmapa will be returning to Rumtek before the property rights issue is laid to rest.
LOL, I don't think O.T. is going there even if he wins the court case. There's too much paranoia about him being the Manchurian Candidate for India to accommodate the wishes of a bunch of Tibetan monks and western ex-hippies.

But then again my predictions about the future are never reliable. I thought payphones and mapmakers were safe investments. :o
I think it's more than Western ex-hippies and Tibetan monks. There is big support among ordinary Sikkimese for his return. I think the local politicians are also pushing an economic argument that forsees the growth of local tourist industry with the return of the Karmapa to Rumtek to the benefit of the region as a whole. That is likely to get some hearing from the Central Govt. Whether it is enough to outweigh its security fears is another matter though.
And you think that the return of one of the Karmapas is likely to see an increase in tourism, more than will the return of the other one? I wonder what the evidence for that is.
Karmapa Thaye Dorje creates a lot of interest each time he visits Europe.
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:18 am

Simon E. wrote:[
And you think that the return of one of the Karmapas is likely to see an increase in tourism, more than will the return of the other one? I wonder what the evidence for that is.
Karmapa Thaye Dorje creates a lot of interest each time he visits Europe.
Thaye Dorje has little support in Sikkim or most of the Himalayas. And while I know you like to try Simon to bring "balance" to any thread involving the Karmapa by adding the name Thaye Dorje. It's a false balance as the latter has only a tiny number of followers compared to Ogyen Trinley. Full marks for effort but I think the race is run at this point.

This article is most probably, from what I have read elsewhere, an attempt by SIkkimese politicians to curry favor with Karmapa supporters in Sikkim. The Indian Govt. has been noticeably lifting the travel restrictions on Karmapa since Shamarpa's death but none of the candidates is allowed to enter Sikkim. I don't think the Indian Govt. sees any benefit for itself in such a visit and worries about unrest and destabilisation. I'm not in a position to say if they are justified. I doubt that any visit will take place any time soon.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:40 am

I suspect that the forum guidelines concerning the debate about the Karmapa issue probably excludes the kind of triumphalism that you display above, Knotty Veneer.
I would mention the fact that this is an area where the democratic vote is not an issue.
This is not an episode of The USA/Britains Got Talent.

As to bringing 'balance' to the discussion, that is not my prime intention. That is just a secondary result of expressing my sincerely held conviction concerning the matter at hand.
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:02 pm

Simon E. wrote:I suspect that the forum guidelines concerning the debate about the Karmapa issue probably excludes the kind of triumphalism that you display above, Knotty Veneer.
I would mention the fact that this is an area where the democratic vote is not an issue.
This is not an episode of The USA/Britains Got Talent.

As to bringing 'balance' to the discussion, that is not my prime intention. That is just a secondary result of expressing my sincerely held conviction concerning the matter at hand.
Come on, I think you are being more than a little disingenuous, Simon. Every time I mention something about Ogyen Trinley you chime in with something about Thaye Dorje.

I take no pleasure in the Karmapa affair and its fall-out and am perfectly happy for anyone to believe whoever they want to be Karmapa. But I think at this stage there is little doubt about who is generally accepted to hold the title and that will not change now.

However, that is not what I want to really discuss here. I posted the link to see if anyone else knew anything about this supposed visit by Ogyen Trinley to Sikkim. That's all.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:14 pm

There is nothing disingenuous about it.I do not deny that I challenge the idea that there is only one Karmapa candidate, the fact that there are two is simply that.. a fact.
What I am questioning is your attribution of a particular motive to me. It is not to 'bring balance' merely. It results from deep conviction.
If at any time you are interested in hearing where that deep conviction comes from, drop me a PM.
The open forum is not the place for the story.
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:40 pm

Simon E. wrote:There is nothing disingenuous about it.I do not deny that I challenge the idea that there is only one Karmapa candidate, the fact that there are two is simply that.. a fact.
What I am questioning is your attribution of a particular motive to me. It is not to 'bring balance' merely. It results from deep conviction.
If at any time you are interested in hearing where that deep conviction comes from, drop me a PM.
The open forum is not the place for the story.
I do not doubt or denigrate your deeply held conviction on this matter. But I have no interest in discussing Thaye Dorje in this thread - unless he responds to the putative Skkim visit of Ogyen Trinley in some way of course.
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:54 pm

Then I suggest that such threads are in the future titled something along the lines of ' Will Karmapa Ogyen Trinley return to Rumtek soon?' :namaste:
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:11 pm

Simon E. wrote:Then I suggest that you title future such threads something along the lines of ' Will Karmapa Ogyen Trinley return to Rumtek soon?' :namaste:
I just tacked this on to a thread that someone else started.

I'm afraid I have to reject your suggestion, though. As I said I think the race is run now. Some folks do not accept that and, while I do not wish to offend them, I don't see the point in pretending that either Thaye Dorje or Dawa Sangpo will be generally accepted as Karmapa one day. That is highly unlikely at this point. I don't believe there is more than one Karmapa. Ogyen Trinley is it. I'm afraid we will have to agree to disagree. I will not be chiming in on any threads that mention Thaye Dorje to remind readers of Ogyen trinley though. Best I can do.

Back on topic though. Do you have opinion on this supposed visit by Ogyen Trinley to Sikkim?
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:23 pm

I think that the race ( to use your metaphor) has not yet begun in reality.
I edited my post above to acknowledge that you were not the author of the thread.
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:29 pm

Simon E. wrote:I think that the race ( to use your metaphor) has not yet begun in reality.
OK, I'll bite. Why do you believe that?
“Trump’s grand and vulgar self-absorption is inviting all of us to examine our own selfishness. His ignorance calls us to attend to our own blind spots. The fears that he stokes and the isolation he promotes goad us to be braver, more generous.” - James S. Gordon.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Simon E. » Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:50 pm

PM me and I'll tell you.
But it may take a while before I reply, my chromebook is running on empty and needs recharging. :namaste:
Gone fishin' :smile:

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Jul 27, 2016 5:58 pm

I don't think discussion regarding various candidates is appropriate here. I am just going to address the "current events" that people may be hearing about via social media and the internet.

The vast majority of Sikkimese people wish for Karmapa OrgyenTinley Dorje to visit Sikkim, and ultimately to take up residence at Rumtek. I'm aware there are some who do not wish for this to occur, as well. Sikkimese state gov't. has appointed a "cabinet member" or created a position in order to move the issue forward, but Indian National Gov't. had previously banned any candidate, and as far as I know that ban has not been lifted or modified in any way. Some monks (and maybe laypeople? I am not sure,) are staging a rotating hunger strike in Gangtok. There have been rallies and marches, demonstrations, etc. in the last few weeks.

I anticipate we'll continue hearing more about this, now that the State Gov't. has taken a fairly decisive action in the issue.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:02 pm

People keep talking about "vast majorities" and "most", etc... What are these estimates based on? Has there been a census done? Are they qualified somehow? Wishful thinking? :smile:
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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