Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

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conebeckham
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by conebeckham » Wed Jul 27, 2016 8:42 pm

Sherab Dorje wrote:People keep talking about "vast majorities" and "most", etc... What are these estimates based on? Has there been a census done? Are they qualified somehow? Wishful thinking? :smile:
In my case, it's primarily personal experience, having spent time in Sikkim, talking to people, and observation. Granted, I don't know all Sikkimese, and those that I do know are likely OTD supporters, given my relationships, etc. When I said "vast majorities" I am specifically talking about Sikkimese people, and not the world at large, though I venture to say TTD and Dawa Sangpo's supporters are indeed minorities. I hasten to point out that I am not arguing that majority opinion is necessarily correct--I am merely saying that the Sikkimese people, on the whole, yearn for OTD to be able to visit, and have taken action to try to effect this desire.

However, I've yet to see any movement from any other candidate that makes news or social media. Have you seen the marches in the streets of Gangtok for the rightful assumption of TTD or Dawa Sangpo to Rumtek? I haven't. Have there been any popular movements for anyone but OTD?

I've seen a few activists on FB who support TTD and post critiques and comments on social media, but very few. I am well aware of the Guest House conversion to a "monastery" and I am aware of the hunger strike back in the 1990's led By Topga-la. In fact, I'm certain I have more first and second-hand information than most people here, Greg. I am not going to get into discussions about the issue itself, you know, and I respect everyone's right to believe in what they believe, and to endorse whomsoever they endorse.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

sherabpa
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by sherabpa » Wed Jul 27, 2016 11:01 pm

Here is a recent, impartial assessment of the general Indo-China situation, with reference to the Karmapa issue, from IDSA, an Indian think tank: http://www.css.ethz.ch/en/services/digi ... e5d54dc8e1

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Thu Jul 28, 2016 8:27 am

I think there is an assumption that this putative visit means a visit to Rumtek. It may not. He might just go to SIkkim but not Rumtek.

Although, despite the ongoing court cases over Rumtek and its contents, these do not necessarily exclude Ogyen Trinley from visiting the monastery like anyone else. Such a visit would of course be highly symbolic. And a visit by Ogyen Trinley might also mean that travel restrictions would be lifted on Thaye Dorje and Dawa Sangpo too.

Ultimately this is all up to the Indian Central Govt. and I can't really see why they are going to change the status quo on this at this time. Local SIkkimese politicians are making the economic argument for a visit but whether this enough to override their paranoia who knows. My guess is that this won't happen at this time but it is a step in the right direction.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

smcj
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:16 pm

I'd never heard of Dawa Sangpo before these posts. Does he have any backers in the lineage supporting his claim?

Mods, if this is against the ToS, then you can delete this post.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:37 pm

smcj wrote:I'd never heard of Dawa Sangpo before these posts. Does he have any backers in the lineage supporting his claim?

Mods, if this is against the ToS, then you can delete this post.

See this thread: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=6738

Dawa Sangpo is a Sikkimese claimant to the title of 17th Karmapa. He has no backing from any major Kagyu lama. Some feel that the fact that he was born in 1977 - 4 years prior to the death of the 16th Karmapa - somewhat undermines his claim. He attempted unsuccessfully to enter Rumtek monastery in December 2001. He is now based in Nepal.
Last edited by Knotty Veneer on Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

smcj
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by smcj » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:43 pm

He has no backing from any major Kagyu lama. Some feel that the fact that he was born in 1977 - 4 years prior to the death of the 16th Karmapa - somewhat undermines his claim.
Ok, thanks. That's all I need to know.

As a footnote, I've heard of at least one small clique of people in CA. that have their own private candidate. It's a group of less than a dozen. But hey, who knows? (That's a rhetorical question btw.)
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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conebeckham
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by conebeckham » Thu Jul 28, 2016 2:58 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
smcj wrote:I'd never heard of Dawa Sangpo before these posts. Does he have any backers in the lineage supporting his claim?

Mods, if this is against the ToS, then you can delete this post.

See this thread: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=6738

Dawa Sangpo is a Sikkimese
Sherpa, I think.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 567
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by Knotty Veneer » Thu Jul 28, 2016 3:00 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Knotty Veneer wrote:
smcj wrote:I'd never heard of Dawa Sangpo before these posts. Does he have any backers in the lineage supporting his claim?

Mods, if this is against the ToS, then you can delete this post.

See this thread: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=6738

Dawa Sangpo is a Sikkimese
Sherpa, I think.....
Indeed. I stand corrected.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

crazy-man
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Re: Does Karmapa return to Rumtek soon?

Post by crazy-man » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:09 am

Dawa Sangpo Dorjee, born to a middleclass Sherpa family at Mangan in North Sikkim in 1977, declared his claim as head of the Karma Kagyu sect at a press conference in Siliguri on June 15, 1995. He claims to be recognised by Jamgon Kongtrul Rimpoche. Dawa Sangpo was subsequently enthroned as 17th Gyalwa Karmapa at a ceremony held at Norbu Yang Choeling monastery at Damthang in Sikkim on June 8, 2000.
more infos about Karmapa Dawa Sangpo
https://www.facebook.com/17th-Karmapa-H ... 526614724/
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYwSY_ ... PERoyaw7SQ
http://tibet.ca/en/library/wtn/10413
The last claimant to the title of 17th Gyalwa Karmapa is a Bihari, named Narain Singh alias Bihari Lama. The claimant's father, Narain Singh, was a monk of Karma Kagyu sect and student of the 16th Karmapa at Rumtek. He had married a US citizen and the couple had a son, Matur Gregory Narain Singh, in 1986. Later, Narain Singh's wife returned to the US with their son and sought $200 per month as alimony.

It is reported that Narain Singh tried to get out of this situation by seeking recognition of his son as the reincarnation of 16th Karmapa from high Tibetan lamas , including the Dalai Lama. He even received recognition from Mungpoo Rimpoche, a Tamang monk from Darjeeling , but failed to get any response from either the Dalai Lama or the Central Tibetan Administration.
http://articles.economictimes.indiatime ... -monastery

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