Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

honestdboy
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by honestdboy » Wed Sep 17, 2014 5:24 am

IF his regent supports the conversion, I think it is hard for him to say anything on this topic.
:shrug:

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lelopa
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Re: Forceful conversion of Druka monasteries in Karma Kagyu

Post by lelopa » Wed Sep 17, 2014 7:45 am

Karma Dorje wrote:
As if the problems with the tulku tradition just started now? If anything, this just shows how prone the entire institution is to the grossest kind of politicking and that has been true throughout it's history since it became the prevalent way for monasteries to protect their wealth and power.

Maybe we should get back to spiritual leaders being chosen on merit. If they are truly tulku, they will encounter the Dharma and put it quickly into practice anyway.
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TsultimNamdak
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by TsultimNamdak » Wed Sep 17, 2014 8:22 pm

An interview with Gyalwang Drukpa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9l_rXcKiwY0

Greg
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by Greg » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:30 am

Who is the main protector in Drukpa? Perhaps will have a fight with Bernakchen? Who will win?

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lelopa
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by lelopa » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:31 am

Greg wrote:Who is the main protector in Drukpa? Perhaps will have a fight with Bernakchen? Who will win?
:rolling:
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pemachophel
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by pemachophel » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:16 pm

I was recently at Kailash and Pretapuri (a.k.a. Thritapuri) and noticed the pictures of H.H. the Karmapa at all the gompa. At Pretapuri, there was also a Dream Flag and numerous of the 17th Karmapa's swirling "logo." At the time, I was happy to see H.H.'s picture at these places (including Dri Ra Phug) but did not know the backstory to their placement. Sorry to hear about this sectarianism. In retrospect, I'm glad I didn't know at the time. At Pretapuri, I did wonder about the Dream Flag, etc. since I knew this gompa was supposed to be a satellite of Hemis Gompa in Ladakh, a Drukpa establishment. Now I know.
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lorem
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by lorem » Thu Sep 18, 2014 4:19 pm

Four-Armed Mahakala I think but "dialogue" is our friend here!
I should be meditating.

Motova
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by Motova » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:13 pm

This is really sad. I was planning on trying a karma kagyu centre in Toronto, but this is now a big obstacle to making a connection with the karma kagyu lineage. :cry:
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by DGA » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:21 pm

I would strongly encourage you to pay a visit (or two, or three) to the Karma Kagyu center in Toronto. This one:

http://www.karmathinleyrinpoche.com/cdn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've had very positive experiences with the group in Calgary.

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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by Motova » Thu Sep 18, 2014 5:40 pm

Jikan wrote:I would strongly encourage you to pay a visit (or two, or three) to the Karma Kagyu center in Toronto. This one:

http://www.karmathinleyrinpoche.com/cdn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've had very positive experiences with the group in Calgary.
Thanks.

But I need to know more about this situation. Who in the karma kagyu are supporting this? Who aren't?

So until I understand what is happening, then I'm going to play it safe...

I went to http://www.ksdl.org/blog/events/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for a teaching on the Heart Sutra a month or so ago, and it was nice. I don't doubt the Lama knows his stuff, but if his Lama is supporting this then...

I feel more connected to the Taklung Kagyu and Riwoche temple in Toronto.
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Karma Dorje
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by Karma Dorje » Thu Sep 18, 2014 6:20 pm

Jikan wrote:I would strongly encourage you to pay a visit (or two, or three) to the Karma Kagyu center in Toronto. This one:

http://www.karmathinleyrinpoche.com/cdn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've had very positive experiences with the group in Calgary.
Karma Thinley Rinpoche is a great master, there is no doubt about this, but he does not take new students as far as I know. Are you talking about Susan's group, Jikan?

Motova, I would not be hasty in tarring all Karma Kagyu before there are conclusive statements from all parties. Tibetan politics are notoriously obscure. The jury is still out on what exactly is happening here and personally, I would examine the life example of a given teacher rather than the political machinations of his or her school.
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by DGA » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:04 pm

Oh, I see. I'd thought he still had an active practice group in Toronto that was open to newcomers.

I was impressed with Marpa Gonpa in Calgary. Not a big group, but practicing well.

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Karma Dorje
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by Karma Dorje » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:14 pm

Jikan wrote:Oh, I see. I'd thought he still had an active practice group in Toronto that was open to newcomers.

I was impressed with Marpa Gonpa in Calgary. Not a big group, but practicing well.
I think Kampo Gangra still has open classes, but led by senior students. The last time I tried to get in touch with Rinpoche in 2010, his health was not the best and he was only seeing his old students. This may have changed in the intervening years. Their website is here:

http://www.kampogangra.com/
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by Destiny » Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:38 pm

Who is the highest Karma Kagyu tulku in Tibet? Pawo Rinpoche?

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conebeckham
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by conebeckham » Thu Sep 18, 2014 8:27 pm

I don't know what's going on here, and I've already expressed my desire for a clear statement from HH Gyalwa Karmapa's office, or similar Karma Kagyu official body. But as others have said, there are political actions, implications, and schemes that we are not seeing--potentially from the Gyalwa Drukpa's side, as well. This is not to cast aspersions on any side, but merely to recognize that what is said in public is often not the entire story, and all participants may have various agendas.

Tarring all "Karma Kagyu Centers" and Lamas with one brush, merely because of the public airing of this issue, is unfortunate, at best. It should be obvious, by now, that when one says "Karma Kagyu" the reference should be taken as a set of practices, a corpus of Dharma, first and foremost, and as an "institution" only secondarily. In fact, really, Two (or more) institutions, these days. We Karma Kagyus may seem somewhat monolithic when compared to, say, Nyingma lineages, but there's a great deal of autonomy out there in Karma Kagyu-affiliated teachers and centers.
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"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by Arnoud » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:13 pm

Good post Cone.

And, nowadays, one could just pick up the phone and say: "Please stop messing with my monasteries. If the Chinese are behind this, forget I called. :smile: "

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conebeckham
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by conebeckham » Thu Sep 18, 2014 9:54 pm

..or just pay a visit to Karmapa himself, as he's unable to travel much.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by Arnoud » Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:40 pm

conebeckham wrote:..or just pay a visit to Karmapa himself, as he's unable to travel much.
Yeah, but that is hard. I don't think that would work with Tibetan politics. Lower visits higher so that would weaken his case significantly.

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anjali
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by anjali » Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:48 am

conebeckham wrote:...when one says "Karma Kagyu" the reference should be taken as a set of practices, a corpus of Dharma, first and foremost....

Which comes to the practitioner through the Karma Kagyu lineage. As you've noted, it's time for the Gyalwa Karmapa to respond to the Gyalwa Drukpa's fairly specific claims.
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Re: Forceful conversion of Drukpa monasteries to Karma Kagyu

Post by Greg » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:33 am

There is so much that I love about Tibetan Buddhism, to which I've devoted a tremendous amount of time, energy, and money over the last fifteen years. If I had to sum up the one thing above all that has disillusioned me to the whole business, it is pervasive unwillingness of people in influential positions to speak out against despicable behavior, no matter how egregious it gets.

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