Fivefold Mahamudra

Urgyen Dorje
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Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby Urgyen Dorje » Mon Jun 29, 2015 9:42 pm

I am curious about the FIvefold Mahamudra, and I'm hoping the more experienced practitioners can help me understand because I'm an idiot and a fool.

Styles of practice tend to get more and more formal and monolithic over time. In my Gelug dharma family that certain was the case, with the Six Session Yoga and Lama Chopa of the First Panchen Lama, and the later sadhanas and commentaries of a handful of lamas really structuring the style of practice in a way that didn't exist right after the paranirvana of Je Rinpoche.

Was the Fivefold Mahamudra as codified at the time of Jigten Sumgon as it is now, with all the recitations defined as in the texts available to us, and with the yidam presumed to be the five deity Chakrasamvara? or was the Fivefold Mahamudra seen more as a style or approach to practice, allowing one to apply whatever one's yidam was to the formula?

Of course it seems logical for five deity Chakrasamvara to be the central deity of the Fivefold Mahamudra, as it was Jigten Sumgon's heart practice, but it's also the case that there are many yidams in the kagyu ngak dzod, and it's also the case that there are many empowerments in Drikung for the coemergent forms of all these yidams for practicing the completion stage practices. It seems like one could follow the spirit of the Fivefold Mahamudra and practice the kyerim and dzogrim of any deity. Actually, it would seem that if one were practicing anything properly, this would be the case...

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bryandavis
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby bryandavis » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:26 pm

This system comes from Phagmodrukpa, to Jigten Sumgon.

As you know probably the five are: Bodhichitta, Yidam, Guru Yoga, Mahamudra via shamatha / vipassana and then directly pointing out the nature of mind by the blessings of the lineage and the guru, Dedication.

The yidam has always been Demchok/Chakrasamvara in the Drikung Line, which are the principle holders of the 5fold path. It is also practiced in the Drukpa tradition as well.

The liturgy is not the exact same as at the time of Phagdru or Jigten Sumgon.

Bodhichitta prayers are general to mahayana practices, Yidam is Ghantapas five deity Samvara, the current guru yoga used is a pure vision from one of the early drikung throne holders given to him by Damchen Dorje Lekpa, it is called 4 kayas guru yoga and takes the aspect of buddha shakyamuni as nirmanakaya, vairocana as sambhogyakaya, dorjechang as dharmakaya though in reality is formless, and the mind as such / thamalgyi shepa /rigpa etc. as Svabhavikakaya. Dedicaiton is a standard dediction.

The essence of the five fold path could be theoretically practiced with any yidam. But as this is a lineage blessing, then you would practice with Samvara.

There is also a form of explanation where each path is shown to purify the five poisons, the five skhandas, the five elements, the five winds, etc.

:cheers:

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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby Urgyen Dorje » Mon Jun 29, 2015 10:36 pm

thanks for the answer.

as a drikungpa i'm familiar with the tradition and system of practice.

my question was spurned by something one of my lamas said, which was that the fivefold mahamudra was a style of practice, an approach to practice, more so than the pecha i was asking him about. if i practiced in that style, he said, i was practicing five fold mahamudra-- regardless of what i practiced. chakrasasmvara, tara, phurba, whatever.

that got me thinking how it might have been practiced in other contexts, in other times...

ud

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bryandavis
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby bryandavis » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:11 pm

Seems like your Lama answered your question already.

In Drikung, as you know since you are a Drikungpa, its has never been formally practiced outside of the context of the general scheme presented today. Formally I mean in the sense of passing down the lineage teachings from one lineage holder to the other.

The overall meaning is, as you know, that these five parts make it a complete practice, from the Sarma Vajrayana perspective.

What part of the country or world are you in or what Drikung Lamas do you take teachings from? Just curious.

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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby Urgyen Dorje » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:24 pm

i guess, what i was wondering, was back in the day of phagmodrugpa and jigten sumgon, long before the sadhanas we're familiar with were written, were there people who did their fivefold mahamdura practice with another yidam? such as hevajra, which his holiness is working to preserve and revive currently...

Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby Urgyen Dorje » Mon Jun 29, 2015 11:29 pm

bryandavis wrote:What part of the country or world are you in or what Drikung Lamas do you take teachings from? Just curious.


I'm sorry, but I don't feel safe saying anything that would identify me or my lamas. For the sake of my lamas, I wouldn't want my negative qualities revealed here to be reflected on them-- and there have been many pointed out.

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Malcolm
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:36 am

Urgyen Dorje wrote:
bryandavis wrote:What part of the country or world are you in or what Drikung Lamas do you take teachings from? Just curious.


I'm sorry, but I don't feel safe saying anything that would identify me or my lamas. For the sake of my lamas, I wouldn't want my negative qualities revealed here to be reflected on them-- and there have been many pointed out.


Oh come on...this is just arrogant.

Not only that, you already have said plenty that places you in the Southeast, north of Cuba, south of Atlanta, Drikung, etc.
Last edited by Malcolm on Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Malcolm
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby Malcolm » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:38 am

Urgyen Dorje wrote:i guess, what i was wondering, was back in the day of phagmodrugpa and jigten sumgon, long before the sadhanas we're familiar with were written, were there people who did their fivefold mahamdura practice with another yidam? such as hevajra, which his holiness is working to preserve and revive currently...


AFAIK, no. However, I can tell you that Norje Repa in his treatment of 5FMM does not specify a specific Yidam. Rigzin Chokyi Dragpa however, in his commentary on the former text treats it as it Heruka is the deity of 5FMM.
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Urgyen Dorje
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby Urgyen Dorje » Tue Jun 30, 2015 1:56 am

Give me a break. This is the internet.

I've dropped my full name and city in political forums, etc., and have had some pretty trippy things happen with my personal space.

The last thing I'm going to do is say I'm Mike Smith from Chattanooga and that I'm related to sanghas X, Y, and Z and lamas A, B, and C as I talk about personal stuff. Given that this place is wide open except for a few private forums-- no thanks. Done the Internet before. Been bit. Not doing it again.

And given my start in this place-- double not doing it.

Malcolm wrote:
Urgyen Dorje wrote:
bryandavis wrote:What part of the country or world are you in or what Drikung Lamas do you take teachings from? Just curious.


I'm sorry, but I don't feel safe saying anything that would identify me or my lamas. For the sake of my lamas, I wouldn't want my negative qualities revealed here to be reflected on them-- and there have been many pointed out.


Oh come on...this is just arrogant.

Not only that, you already have said plenty that places you in the Southeast, north of Cuba, south of Atlanta, Drikung, etc.

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bryandavis
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby bryandavis » Tue Jun 30, 2015 4:46 pm

AFAIK, no. However, I can tell you that Norje Repa in his treatment of 5FMM does not specify a specific Yidam. Rigzin Chokyi Dragpa however, in his commentary on the former text treats it as it Heruka is the deity of 5FMM.


Malcom,

Is Norje Repa the same as Cho Palchen Choye, disciple of Jigetn Sumgon?

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Wayfaring_Man
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby Wayfaring_Man » Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:57 am

There is a fairly recently published book by Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche that details the fivefold mahamudra's practice outside the context of strictly the pecha you're likely referring to. I'm not convenient to my home presently to refer to either.

You should maybe check with your lama regarding whether that would be a good book for you? It may require the empowerment for the fivefold path, but it sounds like you have this since you refer to the specific text. As with most tantra, there is a huge amount to it that isn't explicit but is entirely contained within the main fivefold Mahamudra text.

Regardless this sounds like something you should address with your lama specifically, as nobody here will have a better answer situated to your practice. Especially since the implication here is you want to practice a different yidam or something? That's definitely something to discuss with your lama and not so much the internet I think.
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby konchok_dardrol » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:27 pm

bryandavis wrote:the current guru yoga used is a pure vision from one of the early drikung throne holders given to him by Damchen Dorje Lekpa,



Mind me asking where you learned this? I've been wondering about the history of that specific practice for a while.

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Karma Jinpa
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Re: Fivefold Mahamudra

Postby Karma Jinpa » Sun Jan 08, 2017 5:41 am

Urgyen Dorje wrote:i guess, what i was wondering, was back in the day [...] were there people who did their fivefold mahamdura practice with another yidam?

According to translator Eric Fry-Miller, who completed 3 year retreat under Garchen Rinpoche in AZ, the answer is yes. He's translated a text which is available through the webstore on his site, Buddha Visions, that has Chenrezik in place of Khorlo Demchok.
Eric Fry-Miller wrote:Rinchen Phüntshog’s [...] A Single Five-Fold Gathering presents the practices with the yidam as Avalokiteshvara.
http://www.buddhavisions.com/shop/heart ... mahamudra/

What I've been taught by several Drikung lamas is that while there is a tradition of practicing Chakrasamvara Yab-Yum as the yidam deity in Fivefold Mahamudra, it is a style of practice and we can practice whichever our karmic yidam is for the deity yoga portion of the schema.

Remember, accomplishing one deity accomplishes them all. Chakrasamvara won't be offended if you practice another yidam in his place within the Fivefold framework. Rinchen Phuntsok is not some historical outlier... He was a Drikung throneholder! And if he wrote a practice of FFM with Chenrezik as yidam, you can't say practicing other deities isn't kosher.

Practice whichever yidam you have a connection with.
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