Karma Nyingtik

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dzogchungpa
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote:
Iconodule wrote:Wouldn't the first Terton be technically whoever discovered the Mahayana sutras (hidden in the Naga realm for 500 years)?
Apparently the whole universe is a terma, so the first terton would be ... Image

Guru Chowang in fact does make that identification.
Oh, that's interesting. What does he say?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
dzogchungpa wrote: Apparently the whole universe is a terma, so the first terton would be ... Image

Guru Chowang in fact does make that identification.
Oh, that's interesting. What does he say?
  • The supreme material treasure is the energetic treasure of space that is the universe from the perspective of the its inhabitants, it fulfills hopes like a wish-fulfilling gem...
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dzogchungpa
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by dzogchungpa »

Malcolm wrote:
  • The supreme material treasure is the energetic treasure of space that is the universe from the perspective of the its inhabitants, it fulfills hopes like a wish-fulfilling gem...
Nice, I guess we are all tertons :smile:

May I ask what 'energetic' corresponds to in the Tibetan?
There is not only nothingness because there is always, and always can manifest. - Thinley Norbu Rinpoche
Malcolm
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by Malcolm »

dzogchungpa wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
  • The supreme material treasure is the energetic treasure of space that is the universe from the perspective of the its inhabitants, it fulfills hopes like a wish-fulfilling gem...
Nice, I guess we are all tertons :smile:

May I ask what 'energetic' corresponds to in the Tibetan?
rtsal
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote: the Vima Nyinthig is never considered terma, though it is in fact.
What is the fact that makes it a terma?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote: the Vima Nyinthig is never considered terma, though it is in fact.
What is the fact that makes it a terma?

/magnus
Well, there is the fact that Zhangton says so:
  • As such, thirty years later, having gone to the place where lCe bTsun disappeared lCe sGom Nag po of mNar mDa’ in Rong took out the outer, inner and secret oral lineage and the instruction was not promulgated to others apart from himself. These then spread widely in dBus and gTsang. Fifty years after the revelation by lCe sGom, I removed these unsurpassed secret cycles and the instruction was not promulgated to others apart from myself.

And his biography states:
  • After that, when he was living in the region of Sna khu in upper Nyang, before dawn there was a loud noise. Having arisen, he looked and in the sky there were rainbows, whorls of shimmering light, ḍākā and ḍākinīs, Mahākarunika, Tārā and the gurus of the past giving a prediction, “Listen! Amazing! The intimate instruction of buddhahood in a single life, the Dzogchen unsurpassed secret cycle is in a cliff that resembles a lion. The removal of that will have countless benefits for sentient beings. The Dharma that is enough to meet is amazing, just amazing!” and then they disappeared.

    It is said that when he was eighteen years, Tashi Dorje did not understand the prediction. That evening, after thinking it over, a man wearing a white hat said to Tashi Dorje, “You will be given siddhi, go!”.

    That morning before dawn, [the man wearing a white hat] said “Go!”

    Having left, that evening he arrived at Tsha ba Nyi ma mdar in lower Nyang. There were a group of many monks wearing yellow. Having sat, since he was given much food and drink, he wondered “That year there was a great famine. Should those be called siddhis?”

    Again at dawn [the man wearing a white hat] said “Go!”

    Those monks were drinking a lot of alcohol, and having many dharma conversations, and it is said that they were content in prajñā, hearing and contemplation.

    Then, at noon he arrived somewhere, but he did not recognize the path. Again, he was guided by an upāsaka with a white hat. In the evening he arrived at sTag thabs, and just as he was lying down in an empty house, [the man wearing a white hat] said “Do not stay here, leave now!” and as soon as Tashi Dorje left the door, the house collapsed.

    That evening, a great rain occurred, and so that night he stayed under an overhanging cliff. The [the man wearing a white hat] emanation brought a lot of food and drink.

    Then, having crossed Rva lag tshugs, though there was a disturbance in the lower end of ‘O yug, since the emanation was fearless, on the day he reached “O yug, Tashi Dorje was extremely hungry and was given food by all the ladies who were cutting wood. Then he left and arrived at the base of a cliff that resembled a lion. After he became lost, he could not find it. He looked everywhere, but could not find it. He stayed because he could not return. Since he looked in the index, from the door where good grass was growing, in his hand he had a sharp weapon. Because he struck that [grass], the inside was revealed. Since he went inside, after sunrise he stayed in the center of a mandala. Since he dug with the sharp weapon, there was a mass of snakes and frogs all together. Having gradually cleared them away, he emerged above, and looked around, thinking in in his mind “Dharma is my expertise. If there is wealth, I will be happy.” Then, after producing one hundred and eight indexes, he danced from great joy.

    After that, he wrapped them all with a leather cord, and he looked in the cave of the valley. He could not see anything after dusk. At that time, again the upasaka brought light, food and drink and as soon as he looked at the books, the sound of a very terrifying voice arose in front of the door. “He is the emanation predicted for this, but older sister does not know him” and “I will and bring older sister.”
    After that, at certain times, there were very terrifying voices, thinking that the cave was going to collapse, since his eyes fluttered, in front of the cave there was an an extremely terrifying eye the size of a skillet, a mouth of boiling blood, baring a single fang, of which he was frightened. He wondered why he was encountering this?

    Again, as in the prediction above, since he was not known by the older sister, she said:

    I am Ekajati.
    Offer one hundred and eight ganapujas.
    Explain nothing for three years.

    Then she departed. That upāsaka with the white hat was Upāska Vajrasadhu.

    He blocked the entrance of the cave. Since there was a small piece of turquoise, with one man he offered cow meat and three bushels of barely for one hundred and eight feasts.

    In Nyang rTag rJed, he was greatly served by a faithful benefactress named Shag mo dKar mTsho, and he was able to write down the books completely.
This is why I think so. :-)
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote: the Vima Nyinthig is never considered terma, though it is in fact.
What is the fact that makes it a terma?

/magnus
Well, there is the fact that Zhangton says so:
  • As such, thirty years later, having gone to the place where lCe bTsun disappeared lCe sGom Nag po of mNar mDa’ in Rong took out the outer, inner and secret oral lineage and the instruction was not promulgated to others apart from himself. These then spread widely in dBus and gTsang. Fifty years after the revelation by lCe sGom, I removed these unsurpassed secret cycles and the instruction was not promulgated to others apart from myself.

And his biography states:
  • After that, when he was living in the region of Sna khu in upper Nyang, before dawn there was a loud noise. Having arisen, he looked and in the sky there were rainbows, whorls of shimmering light, ḍākā and ḍākinīs, Mahākarunika, Tārā and the gurus of the past giving a prediction, “Listen! Amazing! The intimate instruction of buddhahood in a single life, the Dzogchen unsurpassed secret cycle is in a cliff that resembles a lion. The removal of that will have countless benefits for sentient beings. The Dharma that is enough to meet is amazing, just amazing!” and then they disappeared.

    It is said that when he was eighteen years, Tashi Dorje did not understand the prediction. That evening, after thinking it over, a man wearing a white hat said to Tashi Dorje, “You will be given siddhi, go!”.

    That morning before dawn, [the man wearing a white hat] said “Go!”

    Having left, that evening he arrived at Tsha ba Nyi ma mdar in lower Nyang. There were a group of many monks wearing yellow. Having sat, since he was given much food and drink, he wondered “That year there was a great famine. Should those be called siddhis?”

    Again at dawn [the man wearing a white hat] said “Go!”

    Those monks were drinking a lot of alcohol, and having many dharma conversations, and it is said that they were content in prajñā, hearing and contemplation.

    Then, at noon he arrived somewhere, but he did not recognize the path. Again, he was guided by an upāsaka with a white hat. In the evening he arrived at sTag thabs, and just as he was lying down in an empty house, [the man wearing a white hat] said “Do not stay here, leave now!” and as soon as Tashi Dorje left the door, the house collapsed.

    That evening, a great rain occurred, and so that night he stayed under an overhanging cliff. The [the man wearing a white hat] emanation brought a lot of food and drink.

    Then, having crossed Rva lag tshugs, though there was a disturbance in the lower end of ‘O yug, since the emanation was fearless, on the day he reached “O yug, Tashi Dorje was extremely hungry and was given food by all the ladies who were cutting wood. Then he left and arrived at the base of a cliff that resembled a lion. After he became lost, he could not find it. He looked everywhere, but could not find it. He stayed because he could not return. Since he looked in the index, from the door where good grass was growing, in his hand he had a sharp weapon. Because he struck that [grass], the inside was revealed. Since he went inside, after sunrise he stayed in the center of a mandala. Since he dug with the sharp weapon, there was a mass of snakes and frogs all together. Having gradually cleared them away, he emerged above, and looked around, thinking in in his mind “Dharma is my expertise. If there is wealth, I will be happy.” Then, after producing one hundred and eight indexes, he danced from great joy.

    After that, he wrapped them all with a leather cord, and he looked in the cave of the valley. He could not see anything after dusk. At that time, again the upasaka brought light, food and drink and as soon as he looked at the books, the sound of a very terrifying voice arose in front of the door. “He is the emanation predicted for this, but older sister does not know him” and “I will and bring older sister.”
    After that, at certain times, there were very terrifying voices, thinking that the cave was going to collapse, since his eyes fluttered, in front of the cave there was an an extremely terrifying eye the size of a skillet, a mouth of boiling blood, baring a single fang, of which he was frightened. He wondered why he was encountering this?

    Again, as in the prediction above, since he was not known by the older sister, she said:

    I am Ekajati.
    Offer one hundred and eight ganapujas.
    Explain nothing for three years.

    Then she departed. That upāsaka with the white hat was Upāska Vajrasadhu.

    He blocked the entrance of the cave. Since there was a small piece of turquoise, with one man he offered cow meat and three bushels of barely for one hundred and eight feasts.

    In Nyang rTag rJed, he was greatly served by a faithful benefactress named Shag mo dKar mTsho, and he was able to write down the books completely.
This is why I think so. :-)
Ok, I can see the logic in that. I assume Tashi Dorje above is Zhangton, or is it Chetsun?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote: Ok, I can see the logic in that. I assume Tashi Dorje above is Zhangton, or is it Chetsun?

/magnus
Tashi Dorje is Zhangton.

M
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by aussiebloke »

Just saw that Sangye Nyenpa had given the Tsasum Drildrup from Ranging Dorje last year . Interestingly the video says that this practice is in the Richen Terdzod , so maybe this is part of Karma Nyingtik , just ignorantly speculating.


http://www.benchen.org.pl/en/z-zycia-kl ... rwiec-2015
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: Ok, I can see the logic in that. I assume Tashi Dorje above is Zhangton, or is it Chetsun?

/magnus
Tashi Dorje is Zhangton.

M
But it certainly seems he also received something from Chetsun, you have any idea what?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by heart »

aussiebloke wrote:Just saw that Sangye Nyenpa had given the Tsasum Drildrup from Ranging Dorje last year . Interestingly the video says that this practice is in the Richen Terdzod , so maybe this is part of Karma Nyingtik , just ignorantly speculating.


http://www.benchen.org.pl/en/z-zycia-kl ... rwiec-2015
Are you saying the only terma by the 3rd Karmapa that is in the Rinchen Terdzod is Karma Nyingtik? I don't think so.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by aussiebloke »

I don't know
aussiebloke
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by aussiebloke »

Well, I took it as a challenge and have gone through the Rinchen Terzod looking for Karmapa Rangjung Dorje's name....
1.Tsa sum Drildrup ( from the mind terma of Karma Lingpa's tradition in accordance with The Water Treasure of the Amrita of Immortality )
2.White Vidya Vidarana in the tradition of Vimalamitra
3.Ushnisha Sitapatatra
4.Karma Nyingtik
I would have included more detail but risk being driven to distraction by my Tibetan spelling being spell checked into absurdity
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote: Ok, I can see the logic in that. I assume Tashi Dorje above is Zhangton, or is it Chetsun?

/magnus
Tashi Dorje is Zhangton.

M
But it certainly seems he also received something from Chetsun, you have any idea what?

/magnus

Well, the account states he had a visionary meeting with Chetsun, but this was long after Chetsun attained rainbow body.
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
Tashi Dorje is Zhangton.

M
But it certainly seems he also received something from Chetsun, you have any idea what?

/magnus

Well, the account states he had a visionary meeting with Chetsun, but this was long after Chetsun attained rainbow body.
Yes maybe, but for him to know about Chetsun he must have been known by him somehow or are you suggesting that he invented Chetsun?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
But it certainly seems he also received something from Chetsun, you have any idea what?

/magnus

Well, the account states he had a visionary meeting with Chetsun, but this was long after Chetsun attained rainbow body.
Yes maybe, but for him to know about Chetsun he must have been known by him somehow or are you suggesting that he invented Chetsun?

/magnus
Chetsun was the teacher of Chegom Nagpo. Chegom Nagpo was the teacher of Zhangton. Zhangton spent one year with Chegom when he was eleven. His bio says:
  • ...when he arrived, he met Guru Chegom Nagpo, Having pleased the guru, the latter said “Since this one is the arrival of an emanation of a buddha, you should give this one to me” and Tashi Dorje remained in his presence for one year.
As Zhangton says:

  • As such, thirty years later, having gone to the place where Chetsun disappeared, Chegom Nagpo of mNar mDa’ in Rong took out the outer, inner and secret oral lineage and the instruction was not promulgated to others apart from himself. These then spread widely in dBus and gTsang. Fifty years after the revelation by Chegom Nagpo, I [Tashi Dorje] removed these unsurpassed secret cycles and the instruction was not promulgated to others apart from myself.
After he left Chegom, he studied with 13 masters, and learned all Dharma topics, including secret mantra.

Zhangton Tashi Dorje was 18 when he revealed the Vima Nyinthig — this was eighty years after Chetsun took rainbow body. However, in Zhang's bio, after he revealed the Vima Nyinthig, it says:
  • Then, when he returned to gTsang, because he went up from Shangs and rTa nag, after he met with the siddha Senge Wangchuk on a bridge, he [Tashi Dorje] confirmed the ultimate three kāyas were inseparable, and having granted permission for the Dharma, [Senge Wangchuk] left and disappeared.
So basically, Zhangton received an entrustment of the teachings from Chetsun Senge Wangchuk in a vision. But they never met as two physical human beings. The relative connection between them was Chegom Nagpo.

BTW, these texts are directly from the Vima Nyinthig. This information was going to be part of my intro, but it was becoming too long. I have a book of Vima Nyinthig material, I will probably included it there. The later bios that state that Chetsun was the guru of Zhangton are not very precise. But the autobiography and the bios in the Vima Nyinthik itself are very precise and explain the situation very thoroughly. Not only did Zhangton have a visionary encounter with Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, he later had a visionary encounter with Vimalamitra:
  • After that, at one time when he [Tashi Dorje] was invited to mTshur khungs by Loppon Nyergom. In the pre-dawn, when doing a ganacakra, he met Vimala, was blessed and granted permissions. [Vimala] left into the sky and disappeared. At that time Tashi Dorje was sixty-one years of age.
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by heart »

Malcolm wrote:
heart wrote:
Malcolm wrote:

Well, the account states he had a visionary meeting with Chetsun, but this was long after Chetsun attained rainbow body.
Yes maybe, but for him to know about Chetsun he must have been known by him somehow or are you suggesting that he invented Chetsun?

/magnus
Chetsun was the teacher of Chegom Nagpo. Chegom Nagpo was the teacher of Zhangton. Zhangton spent one year with Chegom when he was eleven. His bio says:
  • ...when he arrived, he met Guru Chegom Nagpo, Having pleased the guru, the latter said “Since this one is the arrival of an emanation of a buddha, you should give this one to me” and Tashi Dorje remained in his presence for one year.
As Zhangton says:

  • As such, thirty years later, having gone to the place where Chetsun disappeared, Chegom Nagpo of mNar mDa’ in Rong took out the outer, inner and secret oral lineage and the instruction was not promulgated to others apart from himself. These then spread widely in dBus and gTsang. Fifty years after the revelation by Chegom Nagpo, I [Tashi Dorje] removed these unsurpassed secret cycles and the instruction was not promulgated to others apart from myself.
After he left Chegom, he studied with 13 masters, and learned all Dharma topics, including secret mantra.

Zhangton Tashi Dorje was 18 when he revealed the Vima Nyinthig — this was eighty years after Chetsun took rainbow body. However, in Zhang's bio, after he revealed the Vima Nyinthig, it says:
  • Then, when he returned to gTsang, because he went up from Shangs and rTa nag, after he met with the siddha Senge Wangchuk on a bridge, he [Tashi Dorje] confirmed the ultimate three kāyas were inseparable, and having granted permission for the Dharma, [Senge Wangchuk] left and disappeared.
So basically, Zhangton received an entrustment of the teachings from Chetsun Senge Wangchuk in a vision. But they never met as two physical human beings. The relative connection between them was Chegom Nagpo.

BTW, these texts are directly from the Vima Nyinthig. This information was going to be part of my intro, but it was becoming too long. I have a book of Vima Nyinthig material, I will probably included it there. The later bios that state that Chetsun was the guru of Zhangton are not very precise. But the autobiography and the bios in the Vima Nyinthik itself are very precise and explain the situation very thoroughly. Not only did Zhangton have a visionary encounter with Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, he later had a visionary encounter with Vimalamitra:
  • After that, at one time when he [Tashi Dorje] was invited to mTshur khungs by Loppon Nyergom. In the pre-dawn, when doing a ganacakra, he met Vimala, was blessed and granted permissions. [Vimala] left into the sky and disappeared. At that time Tashi Dorje was sixty-one years of age.

Thank you, I do appreciate the quotes. For me it is obvious that there was a lineage of Dzogchen Nyingtik before Zhangton and that he was a lineage holder. Isn't it possible that some of the Vima Nyingtik is more kama than terma?

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
Malcolm
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by Malcolm »

heart wrote:
Thank you, I do appreciate the quotes. For me it is obvious that there was a lineage of Dzogchen Nyingtik before Zhangton and that he was a lineage holder. Isn't it possible that some of the Vima Nyingtik is more kama than terma?
Zhangton makes it very clear that prior to him the utterly secret cycle was not promulgated prior to his revelation. By this I understand his termas specifically to be the Golden Letters, Copper Letters, Agate Letters, Conch letters and Turquoise letters cycles, based on the index to the collection.

However, there are some texts which may have been bundled together with his termas, such as the four empowerments authored by Chetsun Senge Wangchuk, the Seventy-Four Fragments (which are a terma attributed to Chetsun), the Soaring Garuda of Śrī Simha, the so called Sems dmigs drug of Vimalamitra, The Seven-fold Trekchö, and so on which are included. However, some of these aforementioned texts are also found separately from the Volumes of the Vima Nyinthig. Thus, strictly speaking, for various reasons I consider the Vima Snyinthig to be comprised of the Golden Letters, Copper Letters, Agate Letters, Conch letters and Turquoise letters cycles, and therefore the termas of Zhangton.
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by MiphamFan »

What about the bram ze'i skor of Zhangton Chobar, the Lamdre lineage head? Is there any mention of its origins?
Malcolm
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Re: Karma Nyingtik

Post by Malcolm »

MiphamFan wrote:What about the bram ze'i skor of Zhangton Chobar, the Lamdre lineage head? Is there any mention of its origins?

Yes it is the terma of Drom Yeshé Nyingpo, who likely lived in the mid-tenth and early eleventh centuries, making him earlier than Sangye Lama.
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