Clarifying misconceptions that state that the Martsang Kagyu is mixed other traditions

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kunchok89
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Clarifying misconceptions that state that the Martsang Kagyu is mixed other traditions

Post by kunchok89 » Tue Aug 16, 2016 8:35 pm

Clarifying misconceptions that state that the Martsang Kagyu is mixed other traditions

Q: If it is asked: When did the unfounded claims - that the Martsang Kagyu tradition is mixed with other religious traditions, that it is broken, or has dissolved into other traditions - commence or where does its basic discussion have its origin ?

A:
1.In the Western year 1984 a Chinese elder ,Chang, Yi-Suen, wrote in the last volume of the great Tibetan-Chinese dictionary that “MartsangSherabSenge was the founder of the Martsang Kagyu tradition, that later on this tradition merged with the NyingmaPeyul tradition in a place called Kham, and that the reincarnated masters of this tradition are referred to as the Karmapas”.

It appears that Chang, Yi-Suen did not at all know the name of the founder of the Martsang tradition, MarpaSherabYeshe, as Chang, Yi-Suen incorrectly claims SherabSenge to be its founder.

Suppose one would accept that what is being said in this paragraph is true and the Martsang tradition is mixed with the NyingmaPeyul tradition; so also accept that the Karmapas are the reincarnations of the Martsang teachers?! Accepting some points of one paragraph but rejecting other points of the same paragraph, is that not contradictory to logic and truth ?

If the Chinese elder Chang, Yi-Suen did not even know the origin of the Karmapas, then one will be able to understand that he did not know the history of the Martsang tradition either.

Before Chang, Yi-Suen wrote the Tibetan-Chinese dictionary, not even one text had been seen that mentioned that the Martsang tradition is mixed with other Dharma traditions. Furthermore, there are no historical facts or third-party references to support the claim that the Martsang tradition is mixed with other religious traditions and that the reincarnations of the Martsang tradition are the Karmapas? This is clearly just an opinion and not based on reference or fact. Therefore, if one investigates critically, one’s doubts will automatically get cleared away.

2. RangoTulku mentioned in the text MartsangDenrab1 that Lama KatokTashiGyatso in particular wrote an explanatory text on Trekchoe2in which he emphasized the MartsangMahamudra, and mentioned that the text ‘ChagdzoYerme’ contains a combination of ‘GongpaZangtal’3and ‘Thoegal’4. He goes on to say that, according to JamgoenKongtrul Rinpoche’s ‘Treasury Of Instructions’, there is no other Martsang teaching lineage other than the‘ChagdzoYerme’ which contains a combination of ‘GongpaZangtal’5 and ‘Thoegal’, contained in the Peyul tradition.

This paragraph by RangoTulku, that is mentioned above, is the only so-called ‘proof’ that the Martsang tradition is mixed with other religious traditions. But in it, there is no mention of even one word that the Martsang tradition is mixed with other religious traditions.

We have researched whether a text written by TashiGyatso such as this existed or not, and for that purpose examined three different sections of Kongtrul’s text - ‘Treasury Of Instructions’- which was available in Tibet in 2012 and 2013, and thus far determined that such a text did not exist

More evidences are translating from Tibetan to English at the moment, we will update more information once the translation context is ready.


1. text on the history of the succession of abbots of the Martsang tradition
2. Early translation for Vipashyana; together with ‘Thoegal’, it forms the essential part of Dzogchenin the Nyingma tradition
3. lit ‘unimpeded realization’
4. ‘Thoegal’ is also referred to as The Great Completeness in the Dzogchenpracticeof the Nyingma tradition
5 lit. ‘unimpeded realization’

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conebeckham
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Re: Clarifying misconceptions that state that the Martsang Kagyu is mixed other traditions

Post by conebeckham » Tue Aug 16, 2016 9:22 pm

That Chinese-Tibetan dictionary has many mistakes.

The Palyul lineage and the Nedo Kagyu lineages are related, actually, due to Karma Chagme, who practiced Karma Kagyu and Nyingma practices, and was associated with Namcho Mingyur Dorje. Nedo is considered a branch of the Karma Kagyu---both the Nyedo Kagyu and the Palyul Nyingma share some teachings and methods, but they operate distinctly, with Palyul focusing on the tradition of Namcho Ter, from Namcho Mingyur Dorje. As a branch of Karma Kagyu, the Nedo line would emphasize Mahamudra, Six Yogas, and the practices of Marpa Lotsawa, as carried through the Karma Kagyu line, as well as Rechungpa's transmissions. But Mahamudra teachings are found to influence Palyul presentation, and Nyingma and Dzogchen practices are found in the Nedo lineage.

The Martsang Kagyu stems from Phagmodrupa to Marpa Sherab Yeshe who founded the lineage, established monastery, etc. They follow Phagmodrupa's presentations of Marpa Lotsawa's transmission, mainly, but also some Kadam and Sakya practices, as far as I know. i don't know what Nyingma associations they have

Neither the Nyedo nor the Martsang, nor obviously the Palyul NgaGyur Nyingma, are the source of the Karmapas.

Ringu Tulku claims, in his book on Rimay movement, that the Martsang's teachings are found in the Palyul lineage. I don't know where that information comes from. Certainly, from what I've seen, the Palyul relates more to Nedo, and thence Karma Kagyu, than to any of the Phagdru lineages. But I'm always willing to be corrected!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

kunchok89
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Re: Clarifying misconceptions that state that the Martsang Kagyu is mixed other traditions

Post by kunchok89 » Sat Sep 10, 2016 10:19 am

Regarding the sentence "Neither the Nyedo nor the Martsang, nor obviously the Palyul NgaGyur Nyingma, are the source of the Karmapas. " I am afraid the source of Tibetan Buddhism within the tradition of Martsang Kagyu is not related to any Karmapas and Karma Kagyu although they do respect each other.

A big misconception being held about the Martsang Kagyu tradition of Tibetan Buddhism is that it is mixed with the Palyul lineage of Nyingma. The original source of this rumour was generated by a Chinese elder, Chang, Yi-Suen, who wrote in the last volume of the great Tibetan-Chinese dictionary and was also a member of the Communist Party of China. Yet when we carried out our own in depth research for three years, reviewing thousands of documents, we found no evidence to link the Martsang Kagyu lineage to the Palyul Lineage. Further there was no reference to the Palyul lineage recorded in the history of the Martsang Kagyu tradition of Tibetan Buddhism. Sadly some lamas and others did not thoroughly investigate their ideas hence these rumours are untrue.

In reality, Martsang Kagyu tradition of Tibetan Buddhism is linked to Kagyu lineage, Sayka lineage, Zhije lineage and the Kathok school of Nyingma lineage. The founder of Kathok Temple, Kathokpa Dampa deshek, was a very good friend of the founder of the Martsang Kagyu order, Choje Marpa Sherab Yeshe. While these two lineages respected and assisted each other, their lineages are totally independent. However the Sixth Generation Abbot of Martsang Kagyu order, Woser Rinpochewas, also an Abbot at the Kathok monastery for seven years.

Please visit Martsang Kagyu official website for more information url: http://www.martsangkagyuofficial.org

Wrote by Martsang Kagyu London Centre office

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conebeckham
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Re: Clarifying misconceptions that state that the Martsang Kagyu is mixed other traditions

Post by conebeckham » Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:53 pm

Thanks, this reflects my understanding as well. I think the author of the dictionary/encyclopedia or whatever it's called mistook or conflated Nedo KAgyu and Martsang KAgyu, but as I said, there are many other mistakes. It is an unreliable source, from an unsound origin.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")


kunchok89
Posts: 6
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 5:47 am

Re: Clarifying misconceptions that state that the Martsang Kagyu is mixed other traditions

Post by kunchok89 » Thu Sep 15, 2016 4:21 pm

The powerful bodhicitta motivation, and the special conduct of the bodhisattva,
I dedicate them whatever I have done with my body, speech and mind, to the elimination without remainder of the sufferings of all beings,
I make this dedication so that pupils will enjoy the honey of the oral lineage, from the thousand petal blossomed louts of the Martsang teachings,
Spread their excellent wings of the mind's realisation of emptiness and fly into the pure realm of the true nature.

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Clarifying misconceptions that state that the Martsang Kagyu is mixed other traditions

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sat Nov 26, 2016 4:38 am

As a side note, the only relationship that I've seen between any of the P'hagdru Kagyu lineages and Palyul Nyingma is there is a trend of Palyulpa students who practice Drikung Kagyu, and vice versa. One of the reasons for this has its roots in history: a link to Karma Chagme Rinpoche and the subsequent existence of the Lho Chagme Rinpoches in the Drikung lineage.

The 1st Karma Chagme, Raga Asye, presided over the first Mani Drubchen at Gar Gön alongside the 1st Garchen Rinpoche, Tenzin P'huntsok, to celebrate the installation of Princess Wengchen's Chinese Prayerwheel (Wyl. chos 'khor rgya nag ma) at the Mani Lhakhang. It is the 1st Chagme Rinpoche's sadhana of T'hukje Sangdu Gyalwa Gyamtso that is often practiced after Garchen Rinpoche gives the Red Chenrezik empowerment from Ratna Lingpa's terma, and this is likely the text practiced at the Mani Lhakhang at Gar Gön to this day.

The incarnation line of the Lho Chagme Rinpoches is said to have come about after the 2nd Karma Chagme Rinpoche had to split his time between Neydo monastery and Lho Miyel Gön (Wyl. lho mi g.yel dgon) at the request of the king of Nangchen. Towards the end of his life, the 2nd Karma Chagme indicated that he would take rebirth intentionally as two emanations, one for each monastery, so that neither sangha had to suffer his absence. See: http://www.dharma-media.org/ratnashripj ... hagme.html

In modern times, it was the previous 8th Lho Chagme Rinpoche who played an instrumental role in recognizing the child Könchok Gyaltsen as the current 8th Garchen Rinpoche, leading him around Lho Miyel monastery's shrine room by the hand and asking him to point out which statue was his lama. The boy pointed to the central figure, declaring Kyöbpa Jigten Sumgön his lama, which was taken as a sign that the young tulku was the reincarnation of Siddha Gar Dampa Chödingpa.
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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