karmapa dispute and nydahl group

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HandsomeMonkeyking
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karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:46 pm

I recently met some students of Ole Nydahl.

I have heard rumors that they are somehow a special kind but don't know much more.
Yesterday someone was kind of really intense about who is Karmapa and against another Karmapa etc. I was surprised at this behaviour.

So my idea here is not to badmouth. I would like (1) to understand this whole Karmapa dispute and (2) would like to know what is the critique about Nydahl and his group.
Another funny sentence I heard "We get empowerments from Lamas/Rinpoches which Lama Ole checks first". This sounded very weird to me.

I had the impression that some people had some problems in their life and then turned to this group, and when I talked with them I got the feeling that the way they interpret some teachings causes them even more trouble..or seeing things even more confused..or seeing stuff with pink glasses. It's just a very subjective impression of mine though.

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by DGA » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:21 pm

You can get a good sense of what's going on with Nydahl (and what isn't) by perusing the topics below.


viewtopic.php?t=4190

viewtopic.php?t=4501

viewtopic.php?t=18119

viewtopic.php?t=12785

viewtopic.php?t=12840

viewtopic.php?t=7407

crazy-man
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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by crazy-man » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:41 pm

Karmapa controversy
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karmapa_controversy
https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... f-karmapa/
http://www.hindustantimes.com/chandigar ... 2qZVP.html

"Karmapa" Thaye Dorje marriage
https://tricycle.org/trikedaily/wedding ... h-karmapa/
https://www.karmapa-news.org/announceme ... arch-2017/
http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/himach ... 85287.html

views on ole nydahl
https://buddhism-controversy-blog.com/2 ... -teachers/
http://www.tilogaard.dk/english/html/bo ... ydahl.html

only german
http://blog.buddhistische-sekten.de/lam ... rwuenscht/
Google Translation:
The German Buddhist Union (DBU) and the Austrian Buddhist Society of Religions (ÖBR) have investigated allegations against Ole Nydahl, and Nydahl was therefore no longer allowed to appear publicly. Also in an interview with cause \ effect, Nydahl had repeated generalizing anti-Islamic statements and afterwards curtailed the cause of the imprint of the interview.
On my blog, on April 5, 2016 under the title "awarding to Ole Nydahl a wrong decision?" The problems around Ole again.
Thereupon Jan Weber, a German lawyer, asked me and the Buddhist monk and blogger, Tenzin Peljor, to sign injunctions and threaten us with judicial suits. The monk has already been threatened with an imprisonment of € 250,000.00 by the Landgericht Mannheim, or a sentence of up to six months. Tenzin is available for his life only 500.00 € per month.
Jan Weber, who is not only an attorney but also a member of the board of directors of the Buddhist Foundation Diamantweg, also writes to me in his complaint that he regards Ole Nydahl as important as the Dalai Lama. I experience this as a severe subversion to the important man. The Dalai Lama has been serving peace for years, while Ole Nydahl has been for years of dissatisfaction and hatred.
On Youtube he gives an interview, where Ole says "... then you would not have brought so much across the border, or even taken out of the water," (from Min. 19). Does he mean that they should have drowned fugitives? These are views that you can often read in right-radical forums. For a Buddhist teacher who can be called a Tibetan lama, this is a completely inappropriate attitude.
https://www.ursachewirkung.at/blog/2419 ... nter-druck

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by emaho » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:17 pm

Ole Nydahl is also controversial amongst the followers of his own Karmapa Thaye Dorje. Practically everybody from the Dhagpo Kagyu Mandala I met thinks Ole's organisation is a cult and Ole is not legit. They're just not alowed to say it out loud. If you wish to be connected with Thaye Dorje the Dhagpo Kagyu Mandala and Shamar Rinpoche's Bodhipath Centers are recommendable.

And don't let the hostilities about the Karmapa affair bother you. Thaye Dorje is also acknowledged by some of the good guys, like Dilgo Khyentse Yangsi Rinpoche (who apparently acknowledges both Karmapas).

https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php? ... 5370736444

Imo the question [edit: the question when it comes to who you want to have social contact with] is not so much who the real Karmapa is, but how people deal with this issue. If people are tolerant, peaceful and respectful, they are practicing the same religion as I and they are my friends, no matter which Karmapa they believe in. If they are hostile, aggressive, arrogant and full of hatred towards the followers of the other Karmapa, they are not my friends and not practicing the same religion as I, no matter which Karmapa they believe in. :shrug:

[edit: of course, if you want to be a practitioner of the Karma Kagyu lineage, the question of who the real Karmapa is will matter a great deal.]
"Do yourself a favor and get out of Samsara!" Dudjom Rinpoche, Counsels From My Heart

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by Miroku » Mon Oct 09, 2017 4:46 pm

The whole Karmapa controversy is extremely difficult subject, at least for me. I side with Ole and Shamar Rinpoche, however I try to respect both Karmapa's. Maybe try reading "Rogues in Robes" by Tomek Lehnert, it is a story of how Ole reacted to the whole situation. He is depicted as some sort of mythical general. Take it with a grain of salt, however the events are serious.

Well, I never joined DWB as their fees are too high for me. Really sometimes they want too much for the retreats and it seems that a significant part of it is used on parties after the teachings, which I do not approve personally. One of my friends joined them for few months, however she left because she felt that those people there only want to mingle and have sex, which broke her illusions as she mostly admired Ole's relationship with Hannah.

Some of my vajra siblings do not trust Ole and his group, because their adoration of Ole feels cultish and also according to them Ole broke his samaya.

I once encountered a gay student of Ole Nydahl and wanted to talk with him about Ole and the group (I was just curious, because he was first gay buddhist I met) and he told me to try it or f off. :D These are my 2 cents.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by Fortyeightvows » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:12 am

While I know some of what has been said in this thread is true, the whole thing is really just :stirthepot: :stirthepot: :alien:

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smcj
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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by smcj » Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 am

...thinks Ole's organisation is a cult and Ole is not legit.
Ole started out in the ‘70s as the first westerner to be authorized to teach in the Karma Kagyu tradition. As H.H. Karmapa 16’s peesonal student he could give Refuge and give Dharma talks. I don’t know about his official status after HHK died.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by philji » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:01 am

It is often said that Ole was given permission to teach in the west by 16th Karmapa...that was then this is now.... what i mean to say is like any teacher simply being given authorization to teach is one thing...what they do later is a totally different thing.. it is not static... one can deliver what was given or one can abuse. I guess this applies to any teacher tibetan or western who was given authorization to teach.

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by Ayu » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:40 am

philji wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:01 am
It is often said that Ole was given permission to teach in the west by 16th Karmapa...that was then this is now.... what i mean to say is like any teacher simply being given authorization to teach is one thing...what they do later is a totally different thing.. it is not static... one can deliver what was given or one can abuse. I guess this applies to any teacher tibetan or western who was given authorization to teach.
This is my perception as well. Teachers are not static, they change. If they nowadays proclaim racist statements, it doesn't help that they were a student and confident of a high venerable in former times. This applies to many examples.
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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by dzoki » Tue Oct 10, 2017 9:54 am

smcj wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:40 am
...thinks Ole's organisation is a cult and Ole is not legit.
Ole started out in the ‘70s as the first westerner to be authorized to teach in the Karma Kagyu tradition. As H.H. Karmapa 16’s peesonal student he could give Refuge and give Dharma talks. I don’t know about his official status after HHK died.

He was not the first Westerner authorized to teach Karma Kagyu tradition, gelongma Palmo (a.k.a Freda Bedi) was. This is a traditional Ole's propaganda, don't believe it :D

As for Ole's status HH. 16th Karmapa allowed Ole to give basic explanations to practices such as ngondro and guruyoga and basic topics of Dharma.
HH. 16.Karmapa however did not intend for Ole to be a lama, in fact he was heard saying to Ole: "You are not a lama, you have met many lamas, but you are not one of them." When HH. passed away, Ole and his wife Hannah pressured Tibetan teachers to give hime some teaching title. After having their "ears eaten" by Hannah and some of Ole´s followers, Shamar Rinpoche and I think Khenpo Chodrag Rinpoche finaly budged and gave him a title of Kyorpon (skyor dpon). Which actually is a title for a teacher in a monastery, who assists with studies of monks. This happened in the early 80's. Of course such title would not give Ole any gravity, since it is barely known and really does not give one any sort of spiritual authority. So Hannah, who was frequently in India with Tibetan Rinpoches continued to talk to them to give Ole the function of Lama, which they were hesitant to give. In the end Shamar and Situ Rinpoche finaly granted Ole the title of Lama, in 1987, if I remember this detail right. So that is Ole's history as a lama. He undoubtedly at least formaly has a genuine title of Lama, now whether he is a geunine guide for the Dharma path is up to the judgement of people who would like to follow him.

Regarding Karmapa issue and Ole's role in it, first of all Karmapa Thaye Dorje is not Ole's candidate, as some people seem to believe, he was not selected or found by Ole. Karmapa Thaye Dorje was found and enthroned by Shamar Rinpoche, based on his own experiences and based on the indications that HH. 16th Karmapa gave to Chobgye Trichen Rinpoche, then head of Tsarpa branch of Sakya school. One of Ole's students did help with getting Karmapa Thaye Dorje and his family out of Tibet by providing them with necessary docummentation. Ole was closer to Shamar Rinpoche than to the other top brass of Karma Kagyu so it is quite easy to see why he chose to support Thaye Dorje as Karmapa, no doubt he also followed his own personal instinct and information that he had about the situation in Tibet.

The issue itself is quite a mess, there is propaganda on both sides and some followers of both sides like to malign the other Karmapa candidate, which does not help the issue at all. I think it could be resolved if and only if both sides met and talked - especially if both Karmapa candidates met and Situ and Gyaltsab Rinpoches met with Thaye Dorje. But since it seems that this divide fits the agendas of certain people in Tibetan exile community as well as Chinese communist party, it will remain as long as they like to feed it and work against the resolution.

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by smcj » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:08 am

He was not the first Westerner authorized to teach Karma Kagyu tradition, gelongma Palmo (a.k.a Freda Bedi) was.
I know Sister Palmo was highly regarded but I had not heard she was authorized to teach. Did she? I don’t think she ever did retreat.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by dzoki » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:17 am

smcj wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:08 am
He was not the first Westerner authorized to teach Karma Kagyu tradition, gelongma Palmo (a.k.a Freda Bedi) was.
I know Sister Palmo was highly regarded but I had not heard she was authorized to teach. Did she? I don’t think she ever did retreat.
Yes, she even gave teachings to Ole and Hannah themselves and at their center in Denmark. When I was in Dhagpo Dedrol Ling I found some old book on Karma Kagyu lineage history and at the back of the book there was an english translation of some Karma Kagyu texts, the translation was by sister Palmo.

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by smcj » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:39 am

dzoki wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:17 am
smcj wrote:
Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:08 am
He was not the first Westerner authorized to teach Karma Kagyu tradition, gelongma Palmo (a.k.a Freda Bedi) was.
I know Sister Palmo was highly regarded but I had not heard she was authorized to teach. Did she? I don’t think she ever did retreat.
Yes, she even gave teachings to Ole and Hannah themselves and at their center in Denmark. When I was in Dhagpo Dedrol Ling I found some old book on Karma Kagyu lineage history and at the back of the book there was an english translation of some Karma Kagyu texts, the translation was by sister Palmo.
Well then I stand corrected.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.
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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by TaTa » Tue Oct 10, 2017 3:57 pm

Also her tulku was recognized :)

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by odysseus » Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:54 pm

I saw a wall poster for his Diamond Way Buddhism some years ago. I checked out this Ole Nydahl, and for me, it seems like he is fast food McBuddhism. He has some knowledge, but he cannot transmit any wisdom. I don't know which lamas he has been with, but to me he seems like a fraud or some feel-good person that does not know real Buddhism.
Let a man not seek for the respect of his peers, but let him seek wisdom.

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by HandsomeMonkeyking » Tue Oct 10, 2017 10:30 pm

Thanks to everybody for the information.
Especially dzoki for the details.

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by Wayfarer » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:04 am

There was a book published in 2005 about the Karmapa succession.

Dance of 17 Lives - http://a.co/3M4jm67
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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by honestdboy » Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:54 am

I think DWB appeals to people who are turned off by groups who ask you to follow too many rules (like not eating meat) and dislike formality & hierarchy. I like the Russian & Eastern European DW people better than the Western European followers who idolize Lama Ole too much. I myself prefer Bodhipath, but I respect Ole for speaking his mind and working so incredibly hard to spread dharma all over the world.

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Re: karmapa dispute and nydahl group

Post by anjali » Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:59 am

As others have noted, there are numerous previous topics on the subject. After looking those over, if anyone has something new and useful to add, then consideration will be given to reopening this topic.

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