A different look at Guru Yoga

KoolAid900
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by KoolAid900 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:09 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 1:58 am
KoolAid900 wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 9:59 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Nov 09, 2017 5:22 pm
I like what I heave read from Ringu Tulku a lot.


There is a difference between someone advocating real devotion and connection to the Outer Guru, and someone advocating for devotion to the Outer Guru as basically an obligatory institutional thing, whatever else they want to claim it is. Once it turns from an experience of the individual state of Guru yoga to the one where you are supposed to reinforce cultural and institutional norms by showing fealty and somehow that is the practice...then I ain't interested, and I can tell the difference.

I'm sure some will claim there's no difference, but I haven't even been around that long and I believe I can sufficiently grok which teachers are advocating which.



It's called saving face. One of the things that makes Mingyur Rinpoches and HHDL responses to the Sogyal thing impressive is that they have to step outside their own institutional culture to engage in open talk about abuse and scandal of authority figures. I.e. they are willing to give priority to the practice and welfare of individuals over what might be said to the the institutional end of Guru Yoga. To me that indicates someone who is trying to put the essence of the teachings out there.

Other teachers decided the Sogyal situation was a place to repeat the strictures of the institution of Guru Yoga. I don't fault them on some deep ethical level, I believe they are all doing what they think is best, but this is one place where I default to my own cultures norms - whatever the downsides of supposedly decadent, liberal Western culture, our openness about discussing scandal honestly is vastly preferable to "scandal management through tradition", which is IMO what DJKR's response amounted to, among other things.
It seems to me that Dzongsar Khyentse is teaching Vajrayana, and is not going to make a determination for others about what happened with Sogyal. I don't necessarily think this is saving face, but saying that the Vajrayana is bigger than any situation and we have to decide our spiritual path for ourselves. He is emphasizing that one aspect of Vajrayana while HHDL and Mingyur are emphasizing another aspect.... I see both presentations as being compatible. Dzongsar is challenging our views, while HHDL and Mingyur are clarifying certain points. Two different teaching activities.
I want to agree, but the conspicuous absence of a simple act - calling out abusive behavior- coupled with lots of crusty old defenses of "but there Guru said so and you practice Vajrayana so there" make for an ugly combo.

I have liked the stuff DJKR has said more recently, and I am glad he has not simply condemned the entire Rigpa sangha and thrown up his hands, that is commendable in this age. However, without serious condemnation of what Sogyal has done, I am not sure it's enough, and I wonder why he cannot simply condemn the behavior in uncertain terms without sidetracking into Samayaland.
This is what I mean about taking a different teaching role. What I hear him saying is... do we really need him to validate our perceptions of the situation? Isn't that type of mindset what led to problems to begin with?

Also, he is teaching how to practice guru devotion (which I would say is different than guru yoga)... I would he surprised if he definitively says something one way or another about Sogyal. I feel reasonably comfortable believing that Sogyal's behavior was abusive, but I can't be 100% certain (and fortunately dont personally have to worry about it since hes not a teacher of mine).

Another point I hear DJKR making is that Vajrayana is supposed to challenge our perspectives, beliefs, concepts, etc... we can't expect to take that journey with a guru while at the same time expecting the guru to conform to our ideas about how things should be.

Having said that.... my personal synthesis is that while I should expect my teacher to challenge my views, and more importantly my ego, and while I probably shouldn't feel TOO comfortable around my guru, I should feel safe and loved. If I examine my relationship with my teacher, I don't always feel comfortable with certain things and sometimes it gets confusing as to whether those things are cultural issues, my guru's flaws, or just my own self importance being challenged. But even if they are his flaws, I feel a deep sense of gratitude and love for my guru. And I feel capable of loving him regardless, as he has certainly done with me (and I definitely have plenty of flaws). If instead, I felt shame or bad about myself it might be time to start questioning whether it's a good situation for me.

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Johnny Dangerous
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:08 pm

KoolAid900 wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:09 pm

This is what I mean about taking a different teaching role. What I hear him saying is... do we really need him to validate our perceptions of the situation? Isn't that type of mindset what led to problems to begin with?
IDK, apparently Mingyur rinpoche and HHDL were capable of doing it.
Also, he is teaching how to practice guru devotion (which I would say is different than guru yoga)... I would he surprised if he definitively says something one way or another about Sogyal. I feel reasonably comfortable believing that Sogyal's behavior was abusive, but I can't be 100% certain (and fortunately dont personally have to worry about it since hes not a teacher of mine).
You know, if someone came up and asked you "what do you think about this abuse", and then you started conspiciously talking about breaking samaya, instead of the abuse, what should that person think?
Another point I hear DJKR making is that Vajrayana is supposed to challenge our perspectives, beliefs, concepts, etc... we can't expect to take that journey with a guru while at the same time expecting the guru to conform to our ideas about how things should be.
:anjali:
Challenge our perspectives how, by not responding to obvious cases of abuse? How is that a challenge and what exactly is it challenging?
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:11 pm

Lingpupa wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:44 am
The difficulty I have with DJKR's response is that he is willing to play the "vajrayana teacher" card and tell us where we are going wrong, but then goes coy and "who-are-any-of-us-to-judge" when it comes to Sogyal. I understand, of course, that he's moving to get a good slice of what will remain of Rigpa when the dust has settled. Until then, I wait for him to call Sogyals scandalous behaviour what it is.

FWIW, there are a few thoughts of my own on how Guru Yoga can be misunderstood at http://chagchen.org/guru-yoga-whats-problem/
I hope he does get a piece of Rigpa, it would probably be a huge improvement and heal some of what's gone on.

That said, I still don't excuse what appear to me to be obvious face-saving behaviors under the guise of a "teaching" on Guru devotion etc. I agree, it should not be that hard to simply call out the behavior.
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Grigoris » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:37 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:11 pm
Lingpupa wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:44 am
The difficulty I have with DJKR's response is that he is willing to play the "vajrayana teacher" card and tell us where we are going wrong, but then goes coy and "who-are-any-of-us-to-judge" when it comes to Sogyal. I understand, of course, that he's moving to get a good slice of what will remain of Rigpa when the dust has settled. Until then, I wait for him to call Sogyals scandalous behaviour what it is.

FWIW, there are a few thoughts of my own on how Guru Yoga can be misunderstood at http://chagchen.org/guru-yoga-whats-problem/
I hope he does get a piece of Rigpa, it would probably be a huge improvement and heal some of what's gone on.

That said, I still don't excuse what appear to me to be obvious face-saving behaviors under the guise of a "teaching" on Guru devotion etc. I agree, it should not be that hard to simply call out the behavior.
Face saving is a huge part of Asian cultures.
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 am

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:37 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:11 pm
Lingpupa wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:44 am
The difficulty I have with DJKR's response is that he is willing to play the "vajrayana teacher" card and tell us where we are going wrong, but then goes coy and "who-are-any-of-us-to-judge" when it comes to Sogyal. I understand, of course, that he's moving to get a good slice of what will remain of Rigpa when the dust has settled. Until then, I wait for him to call Sogyals scandalous behaviour what it is.

FWIW, there are a few thoughts of my own on how Guru Yoga can be misunderstood at http://chagchen.org/guru-yoga-whats-problem/
I hope he does get a piece of Rigpa, it would probably be a huge improvement and heal some of what's gone on.

That said, I still don't excuse what appear to me to be obvious face-saving behaviors under the guise of a "teaching" on Guru devotion etc. I agree, it should not be that hard to simply call out the behavior.
Face saving is a huge part of Asian cultures.
It is, and if you think about how culturally aware DJKR is in his teachi gs, and how he often teaches on the foibles of both Western and traditionally Tibetan mores...it makes the whole thing that much more ironic.
"it must be coming from the mouthy mastermind of raunchy rapper, Johnny Dangerous”

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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by heart » Thu Mar 22, 2018 7:47 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 am
Grigoris wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:37 pm
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:11 pm


I hope he does get a piece of Rigpa, it would probably be a huge improvement and heal some of what's gone on.

That said, I still don't excuse what appear to me to be obvious face-saving behaviors under the guise of a "teaching" on Guru devotion etc. I agree, it should not be that hard to simply call out the behavior.
Face saving is a huge part of Asian cultures.
It is, and if you think about how culturally aware DJKR is in his teachi gs, and how he often teaches on the foibles of both Western and traditionally Tibetan mores...it makes the whole thing that much more ironic.
Do you mind explaining for me what his face saving behaviour is?

/magnus
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Grigoris » Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:04 am

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 am
It is, and if you think about how culturally aware DJKR is in his teachi gs, and how he often teaches on the foibles of both Western and traditionally Tibetan mores...it makes the whole thing that much more ironic.
Dude, I crap on about the military-industrial complex and capitalism all day, but I still own a smart phone and use plastic products... Hypocrisy is inevitable when you have to function within an imperfect system. Wοuld it be better if one did not point out the problems at all and just got on with business (a type of fatalism)?
"My religion is not deceiving myself."
Jetsun Milarepa 1052-1135 CE

"Butchers, prostitutes, those guilty of the five most heinous crimes, outcasts, the underprivileged: all are utterly the substance of existence and nothing other than total bliss."
The Supreme Source - The Kunjed Gyalpo
The Fundamental Tantra of Dzogchen Semde

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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by smcj » Thu Mar 22, 2018 12:57 pm

let me preface this post by saying:
1. I think SR is a scumbag.
2. His actions were clearly abusive.
3. I think he used the GY as a cult-like control method.
4. I am not in any way defending SR.
5. I support HHDL and Mingyur R’s positions on Lama abuse.

Ok, so if that is all perfectly clear, I’d like to post the following on a purely hypothetical basis.
————————————————
Another point I hear DJKR making is that Vajrayana is supposed to challenge our perspectives, beliefs, concepts, etc... we can't expect to take that journey with a guru while at the same time expecting the guru to conform to our ideas about how things should be.
:anjali:
Challenge our perspectives how, by not responding to obvious cases of abuse? How is that a challenge and what exactly is it challenging?
Well, IF it were the case that those same actions were done by a true Vajra Master (that’s the hypothetical), whose skillful means we’re so acute so as to have only benefited (also a hypothetical), then we certainly would be “challenged” to let go of our criticisms, opinions, and assumptions.

In other words, we would have to give up our attachment to our mundane and pedestrian frame of reference. The square peg of our limited views can never fit into the round hole of GY. That’s the point.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Johnny Dangerous » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:30 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:04 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 am
It is, and if you think about how culturally aware DJKR is in his teachi gs, and how he often teaches on the foibles of both Western and traditionally Tibetan mores...it makes the whole thing that much more ironic.
Dude, I crap on about the military-industrial complex and capitalism all day, but I still own a smart phone and use plastic products... Hypocrisy is inevitable when you have to function within an imperfect system. What it be better if one did not point out the problems at all and just got on with business (a type of fatalism)?
I said ironic, didn't say anything about hypocrisy.
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Thomas Amundsen » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:36 pm

Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:30 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:04 am
Johnny Dangerous wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 1:02 am
It is, and if you think about how culturally aware DJKR is in his teachi gs, and how he often teaches on the foibles of both Western and traditionally Tibetan mores...it makes the whole thing that much more ironic.
Dude, I crap on about the military-industrial complex and capitalism all day, but I still own a smart phone and use plastic products... Hypocrisy is inevitable when you have to function within an imperfect system. What it be better if one did not point out the problems at all and just got on with business (a type of fatalism)?
I said ironic, didn't say anything about hypocrisy.
Or it could be seen as being completely predictable. Khyentse Rinpoche often talks about how utterly human he is.

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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Lingpupa » Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:41 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:01 pm
Lingpupa wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 10:44 am
I understand, of course, that he's moving to get a good slice of what will remain of Rigpa when the dust has settled.
Do you have any proof of this or is it just unsubstantiated gossip meant to cast aspersions on a teacher's credibility?
You are perfectly correct, of course, I don't have any first-hand knowledge of his plans. I should have said
There are, of course, those who say that he's moving to get a good slice of what ...
Equally, I don't know what people mean to achieve by saying that.
Apologies for that.
All the best
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Ayu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:43 am

What Ringu Tulku said is a real good help for me to get things straight these days.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by smcj » Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:52 am

Ayu wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:43 am
What Ringu Tulku said is a real good help for me to get things straight these days.
The quotes were from:
THE NGÖNDRO: Foundation Practices of Mahamudra.

It wasn't written in response to SR's drama so there's no bias one way or another. I think it's available.
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Ayu » Fri Mar 23, 2018 7:56 am

smcj wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:52 am
Ayu wrote:
Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:43 am
What Ringu Tulku said is a real good help for me to get things straight these days.
The quotes were from:
THE NGÖNDRO: Foundation Practices of Mahamudra.

It wasn't written in response to SR's drama so there's no bias one way or another. I think it's available.
Yes. Okay.
Lately I had to ponder about Guru Yoga a lot. Somehow I had to find my personal attitude to it in order to perform more genuinely. JDRK is only a side-topic for me, as I am not connected to him and I don't really understand what is going on with him and the social media.
Being honest, I have to say I do not have pure view most of the time. So, the question for me was: how to perform guru yoga when you're missing pure view? I found out, in this case it is best to seperate the visualized Vajradhara from the external teacher. This makes the practice much more easy on the emotional level for me.
I have decided to stick with love.
Hate is too great a burden to bear.
- Martin Luther King, Jr. -

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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by Simon E. » Fri Mar 23, 2018 10:55 am

:good:

There was a time in my life when that separation was vital.
Taking advantage of a temporary situation. Back for a short time only folks.

KoolAid900
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Re: A different look at Guru Yoga

Post by KoolAid900 » Sat Mar 31, 2018 2:41 pm

Has anybody seen this?

Watch "Dzongsar Khyentse Rinpoche ~ The Future of Buddhism, London Talks Part One" on YouTube


I really enjoyed it, especially the last half or so. In the Q&A he is asked whether or not he supports Mingyur Rinpoche's statement about about abuse, guru, and samaya. Just wondering if it changes anybody's ideas of his perspective on the situation.

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