Names of the karmapas

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philji
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Names of the karmapas

Post by philji » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:33 pm

I read today that the second Karmapa, Karma Pakshi wrote the names of the subsequent 20 Karmapas. Does anyone know where these names are listed? Has anyone heard of this before?

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Lingpupa
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Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by Lingpupa » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:23 am

This is not what you describe - sorry - but it could perhaps be what lies behind the story you heard:

https://www.amazon.com/Karmapa-Sacred-P ... 0967418402
All the best
Alex Wilding
Stupa in the Snow blog at http://chagchen.org/

crazy-man
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Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by crazy-man » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:08 am

Chogyur Dechen Lingpa explicitly described his vision of the prophecy to Karmai Khenchen Rinchen Tarjay, Supreme Abbot of Karma Monastery, who instructed artists to render the vision in painted murals. Chogyur Lingpa’s oral explanation of his vision was recorded in a text called Sounding the Tones of the Melody of Auspiciousness.

Since Chogyur Lingpa was a contemporary of the 14th Karmapa, the visionary details about the 15th through 21st Karmapas were prophecies. Though the statement in the predictions are brief, there are several important points to note about Chogkyur Lingpa’s predictions about the 15th, 16th and 17th Karmapas that have been borne out by their lives.
http://kagyuoffice.org/karmapa/the-visi ... ntury-c-e/
The vision of Chogyur Dechen Lingpa (1829-1870), a great nonsectarian master and tertön was recorded in two forms. Chogyur Lingpa’s oral recounting of his vision about the 17th Karmapa was set down by his disciples was recorded in a text called Sounding the Tones of the Melody of Auspiciousness.
In addition, Chogyur Dechen Lingpa explicitly described his vision of the prophecy to Karmai Khenchen Rinchen Tarjay, Supreme Abbot of Karma Monastery, who instructed artists to render the vision in painted murals.
http://kagyuoffice.org/traditional-mate ... ntury-c-e/

crazy-man
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Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by crazy-man » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:18 am

The 5th Karmapa predicted that the 17th Karmapa would triumph over obstacles which would threaten the continuity of the Kagyu lineage. The following sequence of lines, which focuses on the transition between is excerpted from the a more extended passage in the prophecy:
Prophecy
The 5th Karmapa, Deshin Shekpa (1384 – 1415)
At the end of the time of the Sixteenth
in the rosary of Karmapa
And at the beginning of the time of the 17th,
An incarnation of a demon (lit. “samaya-breaker”)
One with the name Na-tha (also, a “relative,”
spec. “nephew”)
Will arise in this seat, Sacho.
By the power of the person’s perverted aspirations,
The Karmapa lineage will be near destruction.
At that time, one having true aspirations
from a previous life,
A heart emanation of Padmasambhava,
From the Western direction,
One with a necklace of moles, fierce and wrathful,
Whose mouth speaks wrathful speech,
Having dark maroon colour and eyes protruding.
This one will subdue the incarnation
of the samaya breaker,
He will protect Tibet and Kham for a while.
At that time happiness, like beholding the sun
In Tibet this will occur, I think.
Without this, even if karmically virtuous ones come
The dharma will wane downwards,
As fruit of the negative aspirations of the demon.
It will be difficult for happiness to arise.
From the center the king of the center will be defiled
The emanation of a demon, an officer of high rank,
coming from Kong,
Will disturb the center and destroy the center’s domain.
Many outsiders not existing before,
[Not knowing] what has arisen, will conceal.
The beings of the degenerate times, will be
seduced by the demon.
Not having faith in Dharma, will become
full of suffering.
Upper, lower and middle, in all three regions,
Blood of disturbances and arguments will rain.
From quarrels, disturbances and debates,
There will be no place of peace even for awhile.
Except for this poor and busy state
There will be no place for riches and leisure
Except for these very tormented fetters,
There is no liberty.
Three precious ones, the three roots and
the Dharma protectors,
It is not that they don’t have compassion.
Due to the Karma of beings and the
power of aspirations of the demon,
A time will arrive of a downward decrease.
At that time the Secret Lineage Dharma,
Will have more power and bring swift blessings.
http://kagyuoffice.org/traditional-mate ... h-karmapa/

crazy-man
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Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by crazy-man » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:22 am

A closer look at the creative way kagyuoffice interprets prophecies
https://karmapaissue.wordpress.com/2016 ... rophecies/

New book on Karmapa lineage fuels controversy
http://www.karmapa.org.nz/news/27/64/Ne ... ntroversy/

dzoki
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Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by dzoki » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:03 pm

crazy-man wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:18 am
The 5th Karmapa predicted that the 17th Karmapa would triumph over obstacles which would threaten the continuity of the Kagyu lineage. The following sequence of lines, which focuses on the transition between is excerpted from the a more extended passage in the prophecy:
Prophecy
The 5th Karmapa, Deshin Shekpa (1384 – 1415)
At the end of the time of the Sixteenth
in the rosary of Karmapa
And at the beginning of the time of the 17th,
An incarnation of a demon (lit. “samaya-breaker”)
One with the name Na-tha (also, a “relative,”
spec. “nephew”)
I understand how kagyuoffice is trying to spin it to look like this samaya-breaker is Shamarpa, who was a nephew of 16th Karmapa, but natha does not mean a relative or nephew, but a sanskrit for gonpo a protector.

Simon E.
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Joined: Tue May 15, 2012 11:09 am

Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by Simon E. » Mon Dec 18, 2017 12:12 pm

Ohboy.
If you use the word 'mind' without defining your terms I will ask you politely for a definition. :smile:
This is not to be awkward. But it's really not self-explanatory.

philji
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by philji » Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:46 pm

Thanks for all the replies, I am not trying to regurgitate any argumaents about the Karmapa issue. I am aware of the prophecies of Chokgyur Lingpa, but not that the names of the Karmapas were listed by Karma Pakshi. I read this in the foreword/ introduction of the book spoken by Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche.The song of the Karmapa’ commentary on Mahamudra Aspiration Prayer by Chokyi Nyima Rinpoche.
‘ Karma Pakshi, the second Karmapa write down the names of his subsequent twenty incarnations. From that time none of the Karmapas needed to be named’

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Vasana
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Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by Vasana » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:33 pm

I'm sure I've seen the list before but can't remember where. I think there used to be a very good Karmapa blog online that might have had this info but It doesn't seem to show up in the search results on google anymore or I'm just not seeing it.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

crazy-man
Posts: 422
Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by crazy-man » Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:52 am

NTRODUCTION TO THE LIFE OF KARMA PAKSHI (1204/6-1283)
https://www.google.de/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... CFRmC00Q2-

philji
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Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 2:26 pm

Re: Names of the karmapas

Post by philji » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:11 am

Crazy man, many thanks for this account. It doesnt mention the namings of the Karmapas but is very much of interest. :twothumbsup:

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