Karma Kagyu refuge tree

MatthewAngby
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by MatthewAngby » Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:54 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:42 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:46 am
[/img]
conebeckham wrote:
Tue Mar 20, 2018 7:18 pm
2Kamtsang tsokshing.jpg
Hmm... how come this Karma Kagyu refuge tree looks different? Did I get the wrong one haha.. I’m confused !!
:(.
That's a more recent, and far more common, rendition.
There are many variations.
Oh I see. Can I ask if I should remember all of the people in the Gurus section? I’m not sure if I should put the 16 Karmapa in there , 14 sharmapa etc...or can I just take them as just there, without knowledge of all who is inside it.

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heart
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by heart » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:42 pm

MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:51 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:48 am
MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:46 am
[/img]

Hmm... how come this Karma Kagyu refuge tree looks different? Did I get the wrong one haha.. I’m confused !!
:(.
It is because an other thangka painter painted it. They are the same in essence.

/magnus
Btw when I was reading the Torch of Certainty, it says the left hand branch sits countless bodhisattvas, shravakas and pratyekabuddhas of the Mahayana and Hinayana Sangha. Then it includes the lord of three families and the rest of the Buddha’s eight sons. Also it includes the Bodhisattvas of fortunate kalpas, The Buddha’s excellent pair of disciples , ananda, the sixteen elders and the rest. Also there are like a few more yidams described at the eastern branch, which are not seen in the thangka painting...

But... I don’t see the 16 elders and the countless bodhisattvas , shravakas and pratyekabuddhas as depicted in the sangha. Also , I don’t see the “additional” yidams as described in torch of certainty in the thangka painting.

Oh yes btw I’m talking about the thangka painting I shared.

Can anyone help my confused mind? Thanks a ton!
I thangka is just a model of how your visualisation is supposed to look like. Take the one you find most beautiful and if you feel something is missing you just add it to your visualisation. It is very easy.

/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut

"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)

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conebeckham
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by conebeckham » Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 pm

Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by conebeckham » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:01 pm

Shangpa refuge tree.jpg
Shangpa refuge tree.jpg (211 KiB) Viewed 330 times
Here's one that focuses on the Shangpa transmission.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by conebeckham » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:27 pm

The attachment 30979.jpg is no longer available
30979.jpg
30979.jpg (68.49 KiB) Viewed 327 times
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by conebeckham » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:29 pm

93716.jpg
93716.jpg (101.46 KiB) Viewed 326 times
Kalacakra/Jonang emphasis....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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conebeckham
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by conebeckham » Wed Mar 21, 2018 9:30 pm

30990.jpg
30990.jpg (72.86 KiB) Viewed 324 times
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

MatthewAngby
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:51 am

Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by MatthewAngby » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:29 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 pm
Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
heart wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:42 pm
MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:51 pm
heart wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:48 am


It is because an other thangka painter painted it. They are the same in essence.

/magnus
Btw when I was reading the Torch of Certainty, it says the left hand branch sits countless bodhisattvas, shravakas and pratyekabuddhas of the Mahayana and Hinayana Sangha. Then it includes the lord of three families and the rest of the Buddha’s eight sons. Also it includes the Bodhisattvas of fortunate kalpas, The Buddha’s excellent pair of disciples , ananda, the sixteen elders and the rest. Also there are like a few more yidams described at the eastern branch, which are not seen in the thangka painting...

But... I don’t see the 16 elders and the countless bodhisattvas , shravakas and pratyekabuddhas as depicted in the sangha. Also , I don’t see the “additional” yidams as described in torch of certainty in the thangka painting.

Oh yes btw I’m talking about the thangka painting I shared.

Can anyone help my confused mind? Thanks a ton!
I thangka is just a model of how your visualisation is supposed to look like. Take the one you find most beautiful and if you feel something is missing you just add it to your visualisation. It is very easy.

/magnus
Ok thanks guys

MatthewAngby
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:51 am

Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by MatthewAngby » Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:50 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 pm
Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
So I would include the past regents of the Karmapa... and should I include Jamgon Kongtrul ( until the 3rd ) inside? There are some Great masters in the guru section that I can’t fully recall - is it ok if I just “ignore” it or would it be bad? How can I visualise the whole guru section without forgetting some of them or is it ok to do it?

Miroku
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by Miroku » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:14 am

MatthewAngby wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:50 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 pm
Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
So I would include the past regents of the Karmapa... and should I include Jamgon Kongtrul ( until the 3rd ) inside? There are some Great masters in the guru section that I can’t fully recall - is it ok if I just “ignore” it or would it be bad? How can I visualise the whole guru section without forgetting some of them or is it ok to do it?
Dude if you are able to visualize the gurus in detail that you really see them there and know who they are then go for it. :D I am barely able to focus on the Vajradhara and other main parts of the refuge tree... heck I often even can't focus on it. :D
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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Vasana
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by Vasana » Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:31 am

The idea isn't to engage in mental gymnastics trying to visualize each figure perfectly. It's difficult enough for beginners to visualize a single image with unbroken stability let alone dozens of them simultaneously. It's good to know the history of the lineage and why they are in the tree but don't let fixation on details prevent you from actually feeling ready to practice the ngondro with your current familiarity. Realized masters, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and so on are beyond dualistic mind and reference points...Sentient beings are not. You are prostrating as a referential being with all other referential sentient beings with the goal of blending your mind with theirs and going for real refuge from delusion until that same wisdom-compassion has been realized. The images are just reference points for what is beyond reference points. Referential links that have their 'source' in non-referential wisdom.

I don't know if this is a traditional take on the matter though so take it with a pinch of salt if it just confuses things.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

MatthewAngby
Posts: 259
Joined: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:51 am

Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree

Post by MatthewAngby » Thu Mar 22, 2018 10:07 am

Miroku wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:14 am
[quote=MatthewAngby post_id=440911 time=<a href="tel:1521672617">1521672617</a> user_id=10176]
[quote=conebeckham post_id=440889 time=<a href="tel:1521662393">1521662393</a> user_id=443]
Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
So I would include the past regents of the Karmapa... and should I include Jamgon Kongtrul ( until the 3rd ) inside? There are some Great masters in the guru section that I can’t fully recall - is it ok if I just “ignore” it or would it be bad? How can I visualise the whole guru section without forgetting some of them or is it ok to do it?
[/quote]

Dude if you are able to visualize the gurus in detail that you really see them there and know who they are then go for it. :D I am barely able to focus on the Vajradhara and other main parts of the refuge tree... heck I often even can't focus on it. :D
[/quote]
Vasana wrote:
Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:31 am
The idea isn't to engage in mental gymnastics trying to visualize each figure perfectly. It's difficult enough for beginners to visualize a single image with unbroken stability let alone dozens of them simultaneously. It's good to know the history of the lineage and why they are in the tree but don't let fixation on details prevent you from actually feeling ready to practice the ngondro with your current familiarity. Realized masters, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and so on are beyond dualistic mind and reference points...Sentient beings are not. You are prostrating as a referential being with all other referential sentient beings with the goal of blending your mind with theirs and going for real refuge from delusion until that same wisdom-compassion has been realized. The images are just reference points for what is beyond reference points. Referential links that have their 'source' in non-referential wisdom.

I don't know if this is a traditional take on the matter though so take it with a pinch of salt if it just confuses things.
Welll yokay. This really helps with my stressed mind a lot. Thanks!!

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