Oh I see. Can I ask if I should remember all of the people in the Gurus section? I’m not sure if I should put the 16 Karmapa in there , 14 sharmapa etc...or can I just take them as just there, without knowledge of all who is inside it.conebeckham wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:42 pmThat's a more recent, and far more common, rendition.MatthewAngby wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:46 am [/img]Hmm... how come this Karma Kagyu refuge tree looks different? Did I get the wrong one haha.. I’m confused !!
.
There are many variations.
Karma Kagyu refuge tree
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
I thangka is just a model of how your visualisation is supposed to look like. Take the one you find most beautiful and if you feel something is missing you just add it to your visualisation. It is very easy.MatthewAngby wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:51 pmBtw when I was reading the Torch of Certainty, it says the left hand branch sits countless bodhisattvas, shravakas and pratyekabuddhas of the Mahayana and Hinayana Sangha. Then it includes the lord of three families and the rest of the Buddha’s eight sons. Also it includes the Bodhisattvas of fortunate kalpas, The Buddha’s excellent pair of disciples , ananda, the sixteen elders and the rest. Also there are like a few more yidams described at the eastern branch, which are not seen in the thangka painting...heart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 7:48 amIt is because an other thangka painter painted it. They are the same in essence.MatthewAngby wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 3:46 am [/img]
Hmm... how come this Karma Kagyu refuge tree looks different? Did I get the wrong one haha.. I’m confused !!
.
/magnus
But... I don’t see the 16 elders and the countless bodhisattvas , shravakas and pratyekabuddhas as depicted in the sangha. Also , I don’t see the “additional” yidams as described in torch of certainty in the thangka painting.
Oh yes btw I’m talking about the thangka painting I shared.
Can anyone help my confused mind? Thanks a ton!
/magnus
"We are all here to help each other go through this thing, whatever it is."
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
~Kurt Vonnegut
"The principal practice is Guruyoga. But we need to understand that any secondary practice combined with Guruyoga becomes a principal practice." ChNNR (Teachings on Thun and Ganapuja)
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.
In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.
My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.
In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.
My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- conebeckham
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
Here's one that focuses on the Shangpa transmission.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- conebeckham
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- conebeckham
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
Kalacakra/Jonang emphasis....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
- conebeckham
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- Location: Bay Area, CA, USA
Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
conebeckham wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 pm Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.
In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.
My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
Ok thanks guysheart wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:42 pmI thangka is just a model of how your visualisation is supposed to look like. Take the one you find most beautiful and if you feel something is missing you just add it to your visualisation. It is very easy.MatthewAngby wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:51 pmBtw when I was reading the Torch of Certainty, it says the left hand branch sits countless bodhisattvas, shravakas and pratyekabuddhas of the Mahayana and Hinayana Sangha. Then it includes the lord of three families and the rest of the Buddha’s eight sons. Also it includes the Bodhisattvas of fortunate kalpas, The Buddha’s excellent pair of disciples , ananda, the sixteen elders and the rest. Also there are like a few more yidams described at the eastern branch, which are not seen in the thangka painting...
But... I don’t see the 16 elders and the countless bodhisattvas , shravakas and pratyekabuddhas as depicted in the sangha. Also , I don’t see the “additional” yidams as described in torch of certainty in the thangka painting.
Oh yes btw I’m talking about the thangka painting I shared.
Can anyone help my confused mind? Thanks a ton!
/magnus
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
So I would include the past regents of the Karmapa... and should I include Jamgon Kongtrul ( until the 3rd ) inside? There are some Great masters in the guru section that I can’t fully recall - is it ok if I just “ignore” it or would it be bad? How can I visualise the whole guru section without forgetting some of them or is it ok to do it?conebeckham wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 pm Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.
In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.
My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
- Könchok Thrinley
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
Dude if you are able to visualize the gurus in detail that you really see them there and know who they are then go for it. I am barely able to focus on the Vajradhara and other main parts of the refuge tree... heck I often even can't focus on it.MatthewAngby wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 11:50 pmSo I would include the past regents of the Karmapa... and should I include Jamgon Kongtrul ( until the 3rd ) inside? There are some Great masters in the guru section that I can’t fully recall - is it ok if I just “ignore” it or would it be bad? How can I visualise the whole guru section without forgetting some of them or is it ok to do it?conebeckham wrote: ↑Wed Mar 21, 2018 8:59 pm Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.
In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.
My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
The idea isn't to engage in mental gymnastics trying to visualize each figure perfectly. It's difficult enough for beginners to visualize a single image with unbroken stability let alone dozens of them simultaneously. It's good to know the history of the lineage and why they are in the tree but don't let fixation on details prevent you from actually feeling ready to practice the ngondro with your current familiarity. Realized masters, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and so on are beyond dualistic mind and reference points...Sentient beings are not. You are prostrating as a referential being with all other referential sentient beings with the goal of blending your mind with theirs and going for real refuge from delusion until that same wisdom-compassion has been realized. The images are just reference points for what is beyond reference points. Referential links that have their 'source' in non-referential wisdom.
I don't know if this is a traditional take on the matter though so take it with a pinch of salt if it just confuses things.
I don't know if this is a traditional take on the matter though so take it with a pinch of salt if it just confuses things.
'When thoughts arise, recognise them clearly as your teacher'— Gampopa
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
'When alone, examine your mind, when among others, examine your speech'.— Atisha
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Re: Karma Kagyu refuge tree
So I would include the past regents of the Karmapa... and should I include Jamgon Kongtrul ( until the 3rd ) inside? There are some Great masters in the guru section that I can’t fully recall - is it ok if I just “ignore” it or would it be bad? How can I visualise the whole guru section without forgetting some of them or is it ok to do it?Miroku wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:14 am [quote=MatthewAngby post_id=440911 time=<a href="tel:1521672617">1521672617</a> user_id=10176]
[quote=conebeckham post_id=440889 time=<a href="tel:1521662393">1521662393</a> user_id=443]
Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.
In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.
My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.
[/quote]
Dude if you are able to visualize the gurus in detail that you really see them there and know who they are then go for it. I am barely able to focus on the Vajradhara and other main parts of the refuge tree... heck I often even can't focus on it.
[/quote]
Welll yokay. This really helps with my stressed mind a lot. Thanks!!Vasana wrote: ↑Thu Mar 22, 2018 9:31 am The idea isn't to engage in mental gymnastics trying to visualize each figure perfectly. It's difficult enough for beginners to visualize a single image with unbroken stability let alone dozens of them simultaneously. It's good to know the history of the lineage and why they are in the tree but don't let fixation on details prevent you from actually feeling ready to practice the ngondro with your current familiarity. Realized masters, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and so on are beyond dualistic mind and reference points...Sentient beings are not. You are prostrating as a referential being with all other referential sentient beings with the goal of blending your mind with theirs and going for real refuge from delusion until that same wisdom-compassion has been realized. The images are just reference points for what is beyond reference points. Referential links that have their 'source' in non-referential wisdom.
I don't know if this is a traditional take on the matter though so take it with a pinch of salt if it just confuses things.