Karma Kagyu refuge tree

[MatthewAngby]

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2Kamtsang tsokshing.jpg

Hmm... how come this Karma Kagyu refuge tree looks different? Did I get the wrong one haha.. I’m confused !!
.

That's a more recent, and far more common, rendition.
There are many variations.

Oh I see. Can I ask if I should remember all of the people in the Gurus section? I’m not sure if I should put the 16 Karmapa in there , 14 sharmapa etc...or can I just take them as just there, without knowledge of all who is inside it.

[heart]

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Hmm... how come this Karma Kagyu refuge tree looks different? Did I get the wrong one haha.. I’m confused !!
.

It is because an other thangka painter painted it. They are the same in essence.

/magnus

Btw when I was reading the Torch of Certainty, it says the left hand branch sits countless bodhisattvas, shravakas and pratyekabuddhas of the Mahayana and Hinayana Sangha. Then it includes the lord of three families and the rest of the Buddha’s eight sons. Also it includes the Bodhisattvas of fortunate kalpas, The Buddha’s excellent pair of disciples , ananda, the sixteen elders and the rest. Also there are like a few more yidams described at the eastern branch, which are not seen in the thangka painting...

But... I don’t see the 16 elders and the countless bodhisattvas , shravakas and pratyekabuddhas as depicted in the sangha. Also , I don’t see the “additional” yidams as described in torch of certainty in the thangka painting.

Oh yes btw I’m talking about the thangka painting I shared.

Can anyone help my confused mind? Thanks a ton!

I thangka is just a model of how your visualisation is supposed to look like. Take the one you find most beautiful and if you feel something is missing you just add it to your visualisation. It is very easy.

/magnus

[conebeckham]

Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.

[conebeckham]

Shangpa refuge tree.jpg (211 KiB) Viewed 2387 times

Here's one that focuses on the Shangpa transmission.

[conebeckham]

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[conebeckham]

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Kalacakra/Jonang emphasis....

[conebeckham]

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[MatthewAngby]

Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.

It is because an other thangka painter painted it. They are the same in essence.

/magnus

Btw when I was reading the Torch of Certainty, it says the left hand branch sits countless bodhisattvas, shravakas and pratyekabuddhas of the Mahayana and Hinayana Sangha. Then it includes the lord of three families and the rest of the Buddha’s eight sons. Also it includes the Bodhisattvas of fortunate kalpas, The Buddha’s excellent pair of disciples , ananda, the sixteen elders and the rest. Also there are like a few more yidams described at the eastern branch, which are not seen in the thangka painting...

But... I don’t see the 16 elders and the countless bodhisattvas , shravakas and pratyekabuddhas as depicted in the sangha. Also , I don’t see the “additional” yidams as described in torch of certainty in the thangka painting.

Oh yes btw I’m talking about the thangka painting I shared.

Can anyone help my confused mind? Thanks a ton!

I thangka is just a model of how your visualisation is supposed to look like. Take the one you find most beautiful and if you feel something is missing you just add it to your visualisation. It is very easy.

/magnus

Ok thanks guys

[MatthewAngby]

Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.

So I would include the past regents of the Karmapa... and should I include Jamgon Kongtrul ( until the 3rd ) inside? There are some Great masters in the guru section that I can’t fully recall - is it ok if I just “ignore” it or would it be bad? How can I visualise the whole guru section without forgetting some of them or is it ok to do it?

[Könchok Thrinley]

Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.

So I would include the past regents of the Karmapa... and should I include Jamgon Kongtrul ( until the 3rd ) inside? There are some Great masters in the guru section that I can’t fully recall - is it ok if I just “ignore” it or would it be bad? How can I visualise the whole guru section without forgetting some of them or is it ok to do it?

Dude if you are able to visualize the gurus in detail that you really see them there and know who they are then go for it. I am barely able to focus on the Vajradhara and other main parts of the refuge tree... heck I often even can't focus on it.

[Vasana]

The idea isn't to engage in mental gymnastics trying to visualize each figure perfectly. It's difficult enough for beginners to visualize a single image with unbroken stability let alone dozens of them simultaneously. It's good to know the history of the lineage and why they are in the tree but don't let fixation on details prevent you from actually feeling ready to practice the ngondro with your current familiarity. Realized masters, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and so on are beyond dualistic mind and reference points...Sentient beings are not. You are prostrating as a referential being with all other referential sentient beings with the goal of blending your mind with theirs and going for real refuge from delusion until that same wisdom-compassion has been realized. The images are just reference points for what is beyond reference points. Referential links that have their 'source' in non-referential wisdom.

I don't know if this is a traditional take on the matter though so take it with a pinch of salt if it just confuses things.

[MatthewAngby]

[quote=MatthewAngby post_id=440911 time=<a href="tel:1521672617">1521672617</a> user_id=10176]
[quote=conebeckham post_id=440889 time=<a href="tel:1521662393">1521662393</a> user_id=443]
Magnus is absolutely correct.
One visualizes the field of merit, the Refuge Tree, based on one's own knowledge and skill. For instance, in the one you posted, I have often found that depiction of Hayagriva (Tamdrin) to be less like any particular Hayagriva I've encountered in various practice texts.

In the instructions I've received, when one visualizes the refuge tree in the context of doing Kamtsang Ngondro, it's also good to visualize other "trees" for the other lineages surrounding.....One makes prostrations, etc., primarily to the Kamtsang TsokShing but all the other lineages are imagined as suitable sources of refuge as well.

My personal Thangka has 16th Karmapa, as well as Kyabje Kalu Rinpoche, depicted. just don't add gurus who are still alive.

So I would include the past regents of the Karmapa... and should I include Jamgon Kongtrul ( until the 3rd ) inside? There are some Great masters in the guru section that I can’t fully recall - is it ok if I just “ignore” it or would it be bad? How can I visualise the whole guru section without forgetting some of them or is it ok to do it?
[/quote]

Dude if you are able to visualize the gurus in detail that you really see them there and know who they are then go for it. I am barely able to focus on the Vajradhara and other main parts of the refuge tree... heck I often even can't focus on it.
[/quote]

The idea isn't to engage in mental gymnastics trying to visualize each figure perfectly. It's difficult enough for beginners to visualize a single image with unbroken stability let alone dozens of them simultaneously. It's good to know the history of the lineage and why they are in the tree but don't let fixation on details prevent you from actually feeling ready to practice the ngondro with your current familiarity. Realized masters, Buddhas, Bodhisattvas and so on are beyond dualistic mind and reference points...Sentient beings are not. You are prostrating as a referential being with all other referential sentient beings with the goal of blending your mind with theirs and going for real refuge from delusion until that same wisdom-compassion has been realized. The images are just reference points for what is beyond reference points. Referential links that have their 'source' in non-referential wisdom.

I don't know if this is a traditional take on the matter though so take it with a pinch of salt if it just confuses things.

Welll yokay. This really helps with my stressed mind a lot. Thanks!!