Troma Nagmo

Sennin
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by Sennin » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:32 pm

Lhasa wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:13 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:21 am
Lhasa wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:02 am


No, I'm not. I know he gave a Chod empowerment in Europe but I don't remember where or any details about it. It was several years ago. I have the Ear Whisper Chod transmission.
That’s not the same as the Ganden transmission, which is a part of an entirely different lineage.
Nor is it a Troma empowerment.

That is not the point. To spell it out, I have the Ganden transmission which uses Troma Nagmo. I am wondering if I've had contact with this Dakini in any other way. I asked about Garchen la's Chod empowerment because there was no sadhana given and I don't remember the details. I don't remember ChNN using this Dakini in his Chod. I am not equating one with the other, only wondering if I have met this Dakini before. And the only time that might have happened, would be with the Chod empowerment with Garchen Rinpoche.
Again, did anyone attend that online Chod empowerment with Garchen Rinpoche? Or know the name of the sadhana? :meditate:
I forgot the name of the empowerment I think it was by Karma Chagme (?).

He taught on Jigten Sumgons Kusali chod sadhana.
Shhh, look...a crystal!

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Josef
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by Josef » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:36 am

Sennin wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:32 pm
Lhasa wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:13 pm
Josef wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:21 am


That’s not the same as the Ganden transmission, which is a part of an entirely different lineage.
Nor is it a Troma empowerment.

That is not the point. To spell it out, I have the Ganden transmission which uses Troma Nagmo. I am wondering if I've had contact with this Dakini in any other way. I asked about Garchen la's Chod empowerment because there was no sadhana given and I don't remember the details. I don't remember ChNN using this Dakini in his Chod. I am not equating one with the other, only wondering if I have met this Dakini before. And the only time that might have happened, would be with the Chod empowerment with Garchen Rinpoche.
Again, did anyone attend that online Chod empowerment with Garchen Rinpoche? Or know the name of the sadhana? :meditate:
I forgot the name of the empowerment I think it was by Karma Chagme (?).

He taught on Jigten Sumgons Kusali chod sadhana.
Rinchen Trengwa is the main chod collection used by most Kagyu lineages.
Kye ma!
The river of continuity is marked by impermanence.
Ceaseless flowing of appearance.
Beautiful and repulsive.
The dance of life and death is a display of the vast expanse.
With gratitude the watcher and the watched pass through the barrier of duality.

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conebeckham
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by conebeckham » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:06 am

Josef wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:36 am
Sennin wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:32 pm
Lhasa wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:13 pm



That is not the point. To spell it out, I have the Ganden transmission which uses Troma Nagmo. I am wondering if I've had contact with this Dakini in any other way. I asked about Garchen la's Chod empowerment because there was no sadhana given and I don't remember the details. I don't remember ChNN using this Dakini in his Chod. I am not equating one with the other, only wondering if I have met this Dakini before. And the only time that might have happened, would be with the Chod empowerment with Garchen Rinpoche.
Again, did anyone attend that online Chod empowerment with Garchen Rinpoche? Or know the name of the sadhana? :meditate:
I forgot the name of the empowerment I think it was by Karma Chagme (?).

He taught on Jigten Sumgons Kusali chod sadhana.
Rinchen Trengwa is the main chod collection used by most Kagyu lineages.
Yes, and it’s reflective of Machig’s tradition, where Varahi is much more prevalent than Troma. There is also Rinchen KunJung which is a fairly elaborate Chod practice. The short Lujin used by Karma Kagyupas and put together by Jamgon Kongtrul is a sort of condensation of Rinchen trengwa.....
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:17 am

Lhasa, if you feel drawn to this deity, please PM me ASAP.
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:19 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:06 am
Josef wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:36 am
Sennin wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:32 pm
I forgot the name of the empowerment I think it was by Karma Chagme (?).

He taught on Jigten Sumgons Kusali chod sadhana.
Rinchen Trengwa is the main chod collection used by most Kagyu lineages.
Yes, and it’s reflective of Machig’s tradition, where Varahi is much more prevalent than Troma. There is also Rinchen KunJung which is a fairly elaborate Chod practice. The short Lujin used by Karma Kagyupas and put together by Jamgon Kongtrul is a sort of condensation of Rinchen trengwa.....
In his teachings on the Jigten Sumgön Kusali Chöd practice, which can be found easily online in PDF format, Garchen Rinpoche does indeed mention Tröma Nagmo (she is referred to with the Wylie, Khros ma nag mo). Rinpoche mentions how Tröma is the innermost secret aspect of Machik Labdrön, and how Tröma emanates from the mind of Prajnaparamita.

I'd have to look at the sadhana itself (which isn't handy at the moment), but I do believe Tröma is features... If nothing else she would almost certainly be the main figure in the Black Feast. Certainly this is the case in Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche's Chöd compilation.

Not sure exactly how much, but there are bits of Kagyu where the Namchö terma are held. In the Namchö Kusali the main figure is definitely the red Dorje Phagmo. In my experience the blessings and merit resulting from this practice are both swift and exceedingly powerful.

Cone, would you care to tell us why you say that Varahi was more the focus of Machik herself before the Chöd practice lineage was absorbed into the other institutional lineages? This strikes me as a bit odd, especially in light of her guru, Phadampa Sangye, being one of the earliest and main propagators of Tröma Nagmo in Tibet.
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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Mantrik
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by Mantrik » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:23 pm

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:19 pm

In his teachings on the Jigten Sumgön Kusali Chöd practice, which can be found easily online in PDF format, Garchen Rinpoche does indeed mention Tröma Nagmo (she is referred to with the Wylie, Khros ma nag mo). Rinpoche mentions how Tröma is the innermost secret aspect of Machik Labdrön, and how Tröma emanates from the mind of Prajnaparamita.
Are these the same teachings to which I posted a link earlier?

I wasn't sure about the website being a reliable source.

It mentions Kusali as meaning 'have not' but I have seen it before as 'source of virtue'. Guess the practice is sometimes giving performed by those who 'have not' anything else to offer and is also a 'source of virtue'.
http://www.khyung.com

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Suvarna Pakshaya Dheemahe
Thanno Garuda Prachodayath

Micchāmi Dukkaḍaṃ (मिच्छामि दुक्कडम्)

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:32 pm

Yes, it's the same transcript from teachings given in Rochester, NY back in 1999. I got my copy from Scribd before they made their site almost exclusively subscription based, but upon a brief scroll through I can confirm they are the same text.

As you'll see at the end of that document, the transcriber admits to being a non-native English speaker with only a rudimentary knowledge of Tibetan, so there are several mistakes throughout. If you are able to be patient and see beyond those errors, it is such a precious jewel to read those teachings. Once I got into it I truly couldn't put the text down, and maybe even read the whole thing in one or two sittings.
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

Sennin
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by Sennin » Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:12 pm

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:19 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:06 am
Josef wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:36 am

Rinchen Trengwa is the main chod collection used by most Kagyu lineages.
Yes, and it’s reflective of Machig’s tradition, where Varahi is much more prevalent than Troma. There is also Rinchen KunJung which is a fairly elaborate Chod practice. The short Lujin used by Karma Kagyupas and put together by Jamgon Kongtrul is a sort of condensation of Rinchen trengwa.....
In his teachings on the Jigten Sumgön Kusali Chöd practice, which can be found easily online in PDF format, Garchen Rinpoche does indeed mention Tröma Nagmo (she is referred to with the Wylie, Khros ma nag mo). Rinpoche mentions how Tröma is the innermost secret aspect of Machik Labdrön, and how Tröma emanates from the mind of Prajnaparamita.

I'd have to look at the sadhana itself (which isn't handy at the moment), but I do believe Tröma is features... If nothing else she would almost certainly be the main figure in the Black Feast. Certainly this is the case in Lamchen Gyalpo Rinpoche's Chöd compilation.

Not sure exactly how much, but there are bits of Kagyu where the Namchö terma are held. In the Namchö Kusali the main figure is definitely the red Dorje Phagmo. In my experience the blessings and merit resulting from this practice are both swift and exceedingly powerful.

Cone, would you care to tell us why you say that Varahi was more the focus of Machik herself before the Chöd practice lineage was absorbed into the other institutional lineages? This strikes me as a bit odd, especially in light of her guru, Phadampa Sangye, being one of the earliest and main propagators of Tröma Nagmo in Tibet.
Afaik there is only the white and red feast in Jigten Sumgons chod and the dakini is Varahi.
Shhh, look...a crystal!

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lelopa
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by lelopa » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:39 am

Sennin wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:12 pm

Afaik there is only the white and red feast in Jigten Sumgons chod and the dakini is Varahi.
Jigten Sumgons Chod contains only a white/multicolored feast - the red feast in the ususal Drikung-Chod is (more or less) from the 3rd Karmapa's Chod (Tsogle Threngwa)
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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conebeckham
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by conebeckham » Mon Jun 25, 2018 3:32 pm

lelopa wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:39 am
Sennin wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:12 pm

Afaik there is only the white and red feast in Jigten Sumgons chod and the dakini is Varahi.
Jigten Sumgons Chod contains only a white/multicolored feast - the red feast in the ususal Drikung-Chod is (more or less) from the 3rd Karmapa's Chod (Tsogle Threngwa)
"Tsogle Threngwa" is "Tsogle Rinchen Trengwa" and was compiled by Karma Chagme, but parts of it are from various people including the 3rd Karmapa, actually.

The majority of feasts in all the liturgy I've seen from Machig's tradition feature Phagmo, with a few using Troma as an alternative--I don't want to get too specific about details, but Troma is reserved for the extremely wrathful feast offerings in Machik's tradition.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Sennin
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by Sennin » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:49 am

lelopa wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:39 am
Sennin wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:12 pm

Afaik there is only the white and red feast in Jigten Sumgons chod and the dakini is Varahi.
Jigten Sumgons Chod contains only a white/multicolored feast - the red feast in the ususal Drikung-Chod is (more or less) from the 3rd Karmapa's Chod (Tsogle Threngwa)
Yeah I always forget to mention that because they're together in the sadhana text.
Shhh, look...a crystal!

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conebeckham
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by conebeckham » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:14 am

I was just reviewing some notes, and made an error...the daily Cho LuJin Liturgy done by Karma Kagyupas is apparently not Kongtrul's compilation, but 14th Karmapa's........and also Troma does make an appearance in the Rinchen Trengwa and in some more elaborate feasts......
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Lhasa
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by Lhasa » Tue Jun 26, 2018 3:04 am

Thank you all for these beautiful responses. If I understand correctly I have received transmissions of practices in which Troma plays a part, but no empowerments of Troma herself. This picture appeared on my facebook timeline today.
:meditate:


Image

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lelopa
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by lelopa » Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:58 am

conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:14 am
I was just reviewing some notes, and made an error...the daily Cho LuJin Liturgy done by Karma Kagyupas is apparently not Kongtrul's compilation, but 14th Karmapa's........and also Troma does make an appearance in the Rinchen Trengwa and in some more elaborate feasts......
not an error but: "Troma is reserved for the extremely wrathful feast offerings in Machik's tradition."
I've learned to use Throma in every Red Feast (in the Lujin too - not only in the extremly wrathful Dontshog Guma) and Varahi in white and multicoloured feast!
It was teached by Lama Gendun Rinpoche in the early 80s & it was from Surmang-Tradition.
I think he used the Yontan Kunjung text (not Rinchen Kunjung), or the Mutig Threngwa-Sadhana. He often said: "If you want to learn more look in the Crystal Mirror" - the commentary of Yontan Kunjung.
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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conebeckham
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by conebeckham » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:45 pm

lelopa wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 5:58 am
conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:14 am
I was just reviewing some notes, and made an error...the daily Cho LuJin Liturgy done by Karma Kagyupas is apparently not Kongtrul's compilation, but 14th Karmapa's........and also Troma does make an appearance in the Rinchen Trengwa and in some more elaborate feasts......
not an error but: "Troma is reserved for the extremely wrathful feast offerings in Machik's tradition."
I've learned to use Throma in every Red Feast (in the Lujin too - not only in the extremly wrathful Dontshog Guma) and Varahi in white and multicoloured feast!
It was teached by Lama Gendun Rinpoche in the early 80s & it was from Surmang-Tradition.
I think he used the Yontan Kunjung text (not Rinchen Kunjung), or the Mutig Threngwa-Sadhana. He often said: "If you want to learn more look in the Crystal Mirror" - the commentary of Yontan Kunjung.
Right, Yonten KunJung...my mistake.......Kamtsang do this sometimes, but it is really Surmang's thing. And yes, the red feasts in that text do feature Troma much more than the Tsogle Rinchen Trengwa or the Karma Kagyu's condensed daily Lujin, whoever it was who wrote (compiled)it!!
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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lelopa
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Re: Troma Nagmo

Post by lelopa » Wed Jun 27, 2018 5:02 am

conebeckham wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:45 pm
.........................................
.............................................
............................................ the Karma Kagyu's condensed daily Lujin, whoever it was who wrote (compiled)it!!
As i recieved it, the translator said: written by Karma Chagme...
years later in a book i could read: written by 14th Karmapa
:shrug:
ཨོཾ་ཨཱཿཧཱུྃ་བོ་དྷི་ཙིཏྟ་མ་ཧཱ་སུ་ཁ་ཛྙཱ་ན་དྷཱརྟུ་ཨཱཿ

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