Tilopa and Matangi

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Ignorant_Fool
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Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Ignorant_Fool » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:17 am

In the various stories of Tilopa, it is said that he received instructions and teachings from someone (a dakini?) named Matangi. Does this Matangi have anything to do with the Shakta mahavidya Matangi, who is often described as a goddess of outcastes - whose practices often challenged the traditional Vedic notion of purity, or is this merely a nominal coincidence?
The biographies by Karmapa Rangjung Dorje and Dorje Dze Ö list his four human gurus as Charyawa, Nagarjuna, Lawapa, and Dakini Samantabhadri, while another biography by Padma Karpo13 lists four human gurus in addition to Nagarjuna: Matangi, Lalapa, Dakini Samantabhadri, and Nagpopa.

According to Padma Karpo’s biography, Tilopa met Nagarjuna’s female disciple, Matangi, when he sought to find Nagarjuna again and discovered that he had already passed away. Tilopa received Guhyasamaja teachings on illusory body from Matangi, Mahamudra and Chakrasamvara teachings on clear light from Lalapa, Hevajra teachings on tummo from Dakini Samantabhadri, and Chakrasamvara teachings from Nagpopa before being instructed by Matangi to work as a sesame oil maker14 and as servant to a prostitute named Dharima.

Tilopa's Mahamudra Upadesha: The Gangama Instructions with Commentary - Sangyes Nyenpa
Tilopa received teachings and transmissions especially the “Four Special Transmission Lineages” from great tantric masters of India. Among his many masters, the Great Brahmin Saraha, Acharya Nagarjuna, and Matangi played very important roles in his development. For 12 years, Tilopa devoted himself totally to his practices and attained realization.

He also worked at a brothel for Dharima, a prostitute, in Bengal, as instructed by his guru Matangi. He attained great mahamudra realization through practicing in this situation. Through such diligence and skilful practice of mahamudra and tantra, he finally attained the complete siddhi or accomplishment.

The Office of His Holiness the Gyalwang Karmapa
From Shri Matangi (according to other sources Dakini Matongha) Tilopa received the teachings on resurrection of the dead body.

Tilopa perfectly understood and fully mastered the common and supreme points of all instructions he had received, but Guru Matangi (according to Thrangu Rinpoche, the dakini called Karpo Sangmo) did not allow him to enter into the action. When he showed the miracle of transferring the consciousness of a fish into space, his preceptor knew that he had attained siddhi (dngös-grub in Tibetan, which means “accomplishment”) and let him go wherever he wanted so that he could benefit many, many living beings.

In order to rid Tilopa of his last traces of pride, his Guru Shri Matangi told him to work at a brothel in Bengal for a prostitute called Dharima. At night he assisted the prostitute by escorting men in and out; during the day he did the work of beating sesame seeds for his living.

Karma Lekshey Ling Shedra
Any insight is much appreciated.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:04 am

I think you know all there is to know.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

Ignorant_Fool
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Ignorant_Fool » Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:51 am

Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:04 am
I think you know all there is to know.
Perhaps ... I can't seem to find anything about this so it's most likely just a coincidence. Matangi also seems to have been an epithet/name that people from "outcaste" clans adopted, so I guess there's definitely a chance that there's been more then one Matangi.

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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 09, 2018 11:21 am

There’s a story about Lawapa receiving a Vajrayogini method from a woman known only as a “pig-herd.” In Indian stories, the women teachers are nameless root gurus who are manifestations of dakinis. Saraha has a similar story with the fletcher woman. It’s fascinating this went on, considering the methods are pretty clearly not something a man would or could guess or invent. Pretty amazing history.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:27 pm

Might be the Matang(g)ipa (Wyl. ma tang+gi pa) in the Mar-Ngok Hevajra lineage prayers, where it's implied that he bestowed Hevajra upon Tilopa.

According to Thurman, there's also a Mantanggi who was a thief before meeting Nagarjuna. I believe it's from his Jewel Tree of Tibet . Could be the same fellow as the one you mention being linked to Tilopa, as the timing seems to fit decently well.

I'm 99% certain that Matanggi giving Tilopa the Hevajra empowerment is the person you're interested in.

Does that help?
Attachments
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Nagarjuna and his thieving student
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Screenshot_2018-08-09-01-27-40-01.jpeg
Nagarjuna and his thieving student
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Screenshot_2018-08-09-01-34-19.png
Hevajra lineage from Matanggi to Tilopa
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Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

Stewart
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Stewart » Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:58 pm

In the book, "Karmapa, the Black Hat Lama of Tibet" it lists Tilopa's human Gurus, Matangi among them I can't remember the details included, there ate lots of footnotes in that book, but it might be worth checking out.

It's is quite a rare book and out of print, but for some reason my local Kagyu Samye Dzong has two hard copies in its library!. I also have a pdf of it somewhere, I'll dig it out.

In the colour plates in that book, there is an image of a Kamtsang refuge tree from Rumtek, with the Eighth Karmapa Mikyo Dorje as the central figure. At the top are Tilopa's human Guru's depicted above Vajradhara. I also have a high resolution image of the Thangka somewhere, I'll try and find that too.
Last edited by Stewart on Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
s.

Stewart
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Stewart » Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:30 pm

From the book, Karmapa;The Black Hat Lama of Tibet;
Tilopa travelled throughout India, meeting many fine teachers from whom he
received initiations into many esoteric practices. Sometimes he pounded sesameseed
(Skt: Til) to earn a living and it is said that his name derived from this. His
main teacher was the Celestial Buddha Vajradhara, from whom he received the
direct transmission of the teachings, without the need of any intermediary. The
Mahamudra especially was revealed to him in this way. Of the Siddhas with
whom he came into contact some of the better known were Luipa, Krishnacharin,
Vajraghanta, Matangi, Vinapa and Darikapada

From the Four Directions he received the Four Precious Doctrines, and the
three esoteric teachings of Norbu Korsem were also revealed to him. He brought
together the many schools of Indian Tantra, consolidating them into one system,
expressible in seven parts. The teachings derive both directly from the Celestial
Buddha Vajradhara and from his numerous human teachers. Thus:

(WEST)
Dhobipa
Vinapa
Lawapa
Indrabhutil

(NORTH)
Luipa
Drengipa
Darikapada
Sukhadari

(SOUTH)
Nagarjuna
Aryadeva16
Chandrakirti
Matangi

(EAST)
Sukhasiddhi
Tanglopa
Shinglopa
Karnarepa

He lived in deserted places and became recognised as a great Yogi by the
heavenly light which continually surrounded him. Once he appeared seated on a
lion and manifested the power of controlling both the sun and the moon, so
putting to shame a non-Buddhist Yogi called Mati who had boasted that he
possessed the most occult power. On another occasion Tilopa flew high in the air
with his consort and could be seen from a crowded market-place.

Tilopa had a number of fine disciples, the foremost of whom were Lalitavajra
and Naropa. His teaching was the expression of the highest realisation of
Yoga. He passed away in the female earth bird year (1069), at the age of eightyone
and entered the subtle realms.

"Do not imagine, think or deliberate,
Meditate, act, but be at rest.
With an object do not be concerned."
(Tilopa)
The footnote for Matangi simply says:
A Nath Siddha
Here is a crop of the Lineage Thangka from Rumtek showing Tilopa's Gurus:
Kamtsang Kagyu 2.jpg
Kamtsang Kagyu 2.jpg (138.92 KiB) Viewed 441 times
Below it says:
The main Siddhas of the Kargyudpa sect. A detail from the great Lineage Tree thangka at
Rumtek monastery. At the top is Lotro Rinchen, with the Siddhas Saraha and Nagarjuna to
the left and right. Underneath are Siddha Shavaripa and Siddha Maitripa and below them the
Yogini-Siddha Yeshe Khandro (centre), with Siddha Matangi and Siddha Luipa to the left and
right. Chandrakirti is below Yeshe Khandro, with Siddha Darikapada to the left and Siddha
Sukhadari to the right. Under Chandrakirti is Siddha Drengipa with Siddha Vinapa and Siddha
Lawapa to the left and right. Below is Siddha Dhobipa (centre) with Khandro Kalpa Zang to
the left and Siddha Tanglopa to the right. Under Dhobipa is Siddha lndrabhuti with Siddha
Karnarepa and Siddha Rolpa to the left and right. Finally at the bottom centre is Siddha
Shinglopa with jnanagarbha to the left and Siddha Pentapa. The Lineage Tree continues with
the Adi-Buddha, followed by the direct Kargyudpa transmission of Siddha Tilopa, Siddha
Naropa, Marpa, Milarepa, Gampopa, and the Karmapas, Shamarpas, Situpas, Gyaltsapas and soon.
Hope this of interest.
s.

Crazywisdom
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Crazywisdom » Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:45 pm

Very awesome posts. Thank you, all.
She glares menacingly at your corpse.

The criticisms of others are like wrathful mantras. Fast purification. Welcome it. -can’t remember who

Ignorant_Fool
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Ignorant_Fool » Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:35 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 1:27 pm
Might be the Matang(g)ipa (Wyl. ma tang+gi pa) in the Mar-Ngok Hevajra lineage prayers, where it's implied that he bestowed Hevajra upon Tilopa.

According to Thurman, there's also a Mantanggi who was a thief before meeting Nagarjuna. I believe it's from his Jewel Tree of Tibet . Could be the same fellow as the one you mention being linked to Tilopa, as the timing seems to fit decently well.
Stewart wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 2:30 pm
From the book, Karmapa;The Black Hat Lama of Tibet;
Of the Siddhas with
whom he came into contact some of the better known were Luipa, Krishnacharin,
Vajraghanta, Matangi, Vinapa and Darikapada
The footnote for Matangi simply says:
A Nath Siddha
These are awesome! Interesting how Matangi is portrayed as male in these accounts. Again, this could just be common nomenclature for certain groups of people. Most of the commonly available hagiographies of Tilopa usually associate the name Matangi to a dakini - which is why I presumed there might be connection with the Shakta goddess of the same name. In some accounts the name Matongha appears instead, but I'm if this is an alternate spelling or another dakini entirely. The stories are very similar though.
When Tilopa was abiding in a certain cave, Nagarjuna sent the dakini Matongha to give him teachings. When Matongha appeared, Tilopa inquired about Nagarjuna and was told that Nagarjuna was not in the human realm at that time but was giving teachings in the god realm. Matongha also told Tilopa that Nagarjuna knew Tilopa would be in this particular cave and had sent her to give him teachings.

As Nagarjuna requested, Tilopa received teachings from Matongha. During this time, Matongha noticed that because Tilopa had been king and of royal caste, his mind possessed a strong pride that hindered his progress, and she told him that his arrogance must be removed. Tilopa was given instructions to go to a certain village to seek out a woman there who was a prostitute and to work for her. The woman worked during the day making oil out of sesame seed and worked at night as a prostitute. As he was instructed, he worked for the woman during the day by pounding sesame seed, and during the night by soliciting her customers. In this way Tilopa lived as the prostitute's helper.

Rumtek Dharma Chakra Centre
Crazywisdom wrote:
Thu Aug 09, 2018 3:45 pm
Very awesome posts. Thank you, all.
In complete agreement with Crazywisdom. Awesome posts. Thank you very much for the insight. A lot for my dull brain to unpack and go through. :anjali:

Edit: Just to clarify, I'm not trying to assimilate / homogenise the Shakta goddess and Tilopa's wisdom dakini in any way. Just found it all to be a very interesting coincidence. :)

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Palzang Jangchub
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:36 pm

Apparently Taranatha's History of Buddhism in India has a couple references to Matangipa as well. Gonna look thru my electronic copy and post relevant quotes here.
Screenshot_2018-08-10-07-31-27.png
Screenshot_2018-08-10-07-31-27.png (333.36 KiB) Viewed 292 times
It occurs to me that not only could Matongha and Matangipa be different figures not to be conflated, but that the opposite may well be true. I think it's safe to say that even hagiographies of great masters have been subject to patriarchal bias, so perhaps Matangipa was really a dakini but those who retold the story and wrote it down decided that a male disciple who goes on to teach other great masters was more palatable.
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

Ignorant_Fool
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Ignorant_Fool » Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:38 pm

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:36 pm
It occurs to me that not only could Matongha and Matangipa be different figures not to be conflated, but that the opposite may well be true. I think it's safe to say that even hagiographies of great masters have been subject to patriarchal bias, so perhaps Matangipa was really a dakini but those who retold the story and wrote it down decided that a male disciple who goes on to teach other great masters was more palatable.
I can definitely see something like this happening but surely it constitutes some serious breaches of samaya, not to mention that it's a pretty crazy thing to do ...

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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:14 pm

Ignorant_Fool wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 3:38 pm
Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 12:36 pm
It occurs to me that not only could Matongha and Matangipa be different figures not to be conflated, but that the opposite may well be true. I think it's safe to say that even hagiographies of great masters have been subject to patriarchal bias, so perhaps Matangipa was really a dakini but those who retold the story and wrote it down decided that a male disciple who goes on to teach other great masters was more palatable.
I can definitely see something like this happening but surely it constitutes some serious breaches of samaya, not to mention that it's a pretty crazy thing to do ...
Eh, at the end of the day patriarchy is patriarchy, and misogyny is misogyny. Personally i think it's our job as practitioners to call out oppression when we see it and kindly remind the perpetrators that just like Rhett habe buddha-nature, so do all beings. Even the ones you hate or malign as other and sub-human. Practitioner friends of mine have disagreed with me on this, seeing social justice as politics that shouldn't be mixed with Dharma. But i think we're kissing ourselves if we think Tibetan Buddhism is antithetical to politics. All you have to do is look at the history to know that's not the case. We don't need to deny the relative truth if we can benefit beings with pure intention. Same with not having revulsion towards our aggregates.

It appears that Matangipa, at least according to all the sources i found, is depicted as a man.
_ Yogi Matang-gi pa.jpg
_ Yogi Matang-gi pa.jpg (411.37 KiB) Viewed 252 times
He's on the Drikung Kagyu refuge tree, too. I do believe that Drikung Kagyu gets their lineage of Mar-Ngok Hevajra thru Karma Kagyu originally, so it makes sense there would be common figures before Marpa.

Apparently Matangipa also is mentioned in Buddhas Lions as one of the 84 Mahasiddhas from India. If you can somehow find a copy, see pp. 285-288.

From Leksheyling, a Kamtsangpa website, there is mention in Tilopa's bio:
From Shri Matangi (according to other sources Dakini Matongha) Tilopa received the teachings on resurrection of the dead body.
http://leksheyling.net/pages/english/Li ... ang-po.htm
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

Ignorant_Fool
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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Ignorant_Fool » Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:47 am

Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:14 pm
Eh, at the end of the day patriarchy is patriarchy, and misogyny is misogyny. Personally i think it's our job as practitioners to call out oppression when we see it and kindly remind the perpetrators that just like Rhett habe buddha-nature, so do all beings. Even the ones you hate or malign as other and sub-human. Practitioner friends of mine have disagreed with me on this, seeing social justice as politics that shouldn't be mixed with Dharma. But i think we're kissing ourselves if we think Tibetan Buddhism is antithetical to politics. All you have to do is look at the history to know that's not the case. We don't need to deny the relative truth if we can benefit beings with pure intention. Same with not having revulsion towards our aggregates.
Not going to argue with you there.
Palzang Jangchub wrote:
Fri Aug 10, 2018 4:14 pm
It appears that Matangipa, at least according to all the sources i found, is depicted as a man.
_ Yogi Matang-gi pa.jpg
He's on the Drikung Kagyu refuge tree, too. I do believe that Drikung Kagyu gets their lineage of Mar-Ngok Hevajra thru Karma Kagyu originally, so it makes sense there would be common figures before Marpa.

Apparently Matangipa also is mentioned in Buddhas Lions as one of the 84 Mahasiddhas from India. If you can somehow find a copy, see pp. 285-288.

From Leksheyling, a Kamtsangpa website, there is mention in Tilopa's bio:
From Shri Matangi (according to other sources Dakini Matongha) Tilopa received the teachings on resurrection of the dead body.
http://leksheyling.net/pages/english/Li ... ang-po.htm
Thanks for all your help and insight. Plenty for me to chew on. :bow:

Interestingly, the name Matangi also appears in the Shurangama Sutra, which details Ananda almost breaking his precepts after being seduced by the daughter of Matangi. Not sure how much patriarchal bias went into this one ...
At that time, because Ánanda was receiving alms in sequential order, he passed by a house of prostitution and was waylaid by a powerful artifice. On the strength of Kapila’s mantra, which came from the Brahma Heaven, the daughter of Matangi drew him onto an impure mat.

With her licentious body she caressed him until he was on the verge of destroying the precept-substance.

The Tathágata, knowing Ánanda was being taken advantage of by an impure artifice, finished the meal and immediately returned to the Sublime Abode. The king, great officials, elders, and laypeople followed along after the Buddha desiring to hear the essentials of the Dharma.

Then the World Honored One from his crown emitted hundreds of rays of jeweled light, which dispelled all fear. Within the light appeared a thousand-petal jeweled lotus, upon which was seated a transformation-body Buddha in full-lotus posture, proclaiming a spiritual mantra.

Shakyamuni Buddha commanded Manjushri to take the mantra and go provide protection, and, when the evil mantra was dispelled, to support Ánanda and Matangi’s daughter and encourage them to return to where the Buddha was.

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Re: Tilopa and Matangi

Post by Palzang Jangchub » Sat Aug 11, 2018 12:06 pm

I'm quite taken aback by the Sutra referring to Matangi's daughter as an impure "artifice," as if she's an object and not a being with buddha-nature, but the rest seems to be alright to me.
Image

"The Sutras, Tantras, and Philosophical Scriptures are great in number. However life is short, and intelligence is limited, so it's hard to cover them completely. You may know a lot, but if you don't put it into practice, it's like dying of thirst on the shore of a great lake. Likewise, a common corpse is found in the bed of a great scholar." ~ Karma Chagme

དྲིན་ཆེན་རྩ་བའི་བླ་མ་སྐྱབས་རྗེ་མགར་ཆེན་ཁྲི་སྤྲུལ་རིན་པོ་ཆེ་ཁྱེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ།།
རྗེ་བཙུན་བླ་མ་མཁས་གྲུབ་ཀརྨ་ཆགས་མེད་མཁྱེན་ནོ། ཀརྨ་པ་མཁྱེན་ནོཿ

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