Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Knotty Veneer
Posts: 571
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2012 1:50 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:12 am

Simon E. wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 10:02 am
The actual problem is the 'tulku' system...its also where the only real solution lies.
Gotta agree with Simon here. Tulku system really seems to be just a source of trouble at this point in history.

I really am finding all these lama dramas more and more disspiriting. Time for this outdated system to go and a more modern merit-based system with proper checks and balances to replace it.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

User avatar
Quay
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Quay » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:17 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:27 am
... if he has renounced the whole thing and gone against his lineage for whatever reasons justified or not, why would he want to give teachings anyway? And if he is giving teachings, does he teach Vajrayana, or personal stuff unrelated to lineage?
In the Vajrayana system he is the lineage. He teaches Shangpa Kagyu including the empowerments and practices. So no, he has not renounced the lineage or gone of on a wild tangent.

narraboth wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:00 am
I am puzzle how a highest status tulku in the temple can be abused by lower ranking monk like a common child. Not saying that it's impossible but the power imbalance that often seen in other sexual abuse was not there....
You've got the answer to your own question in that first sentence. He was recognized as a tulku and the reincarnation of the previous Kalu Rinpoche then sent to a monastery where he was indeed treated like a common child. Monks are human and have to deal with things like jealousy, politics, and all kinds of things a cloistered institution can bring with it. Including rape.

The power imbalance is simple to see: a child among grown men.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Aryjna » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:19 pm

Quay wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:17 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:27 am
... if he has renounced the whole thing and gone against his lineage for whatever reasons justified or not, why would he want to give teachings anyway? And if he is giving teachings, does he teach Vajrayana, or personal stuff unrelated to lineage?
In the Vajrayana system he is the lineage. He teaches Shangpa Kagyu including the empowerments and practices. So no, he has not renounced the lineage or gone of on a wild tangent.
Tulku or not, he is not the lineage is the Vajrayana system.

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6175
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by kirtu » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:36 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:19 pm
Quay wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:17 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:27 am
... if he has renounced the whole thing and gone against his lineage for whatever reasons justified or not, why would he want to give teachings anyway? And if he is giving teachings, does he teach Vajrayana, or personal stuff unrelated to lineage?
In the Vajrayana system he is the lineage. He teaches Shangpa Kagyu including the empowerments and practices. So no, he has not renounced the lineage or gone of on a wild tangent.
Tulku or not, he is not the lineage is the Vajrayana system.
Yes Shangpa is a lineage of Tibetan Buddhism specifically a Kagyu lineage. The thing is that it's practices generally were absorbed by many other schools over time. So someone else who knows the history can relate that but at least during the lifetime of HE Kalu Rinpoche (Karma Rangjung Künkhyab Thrinle , 1905-1989) the lineage was at least "reasserted" and appears to have been "reestablished" as a lineage. HE Bokar Rinpoche was the successor of HE Kalu Rinpoche.

It's true that a western student of HE Kalu Rinpoche asked him once about the Shangpa lineage and Kalu Rinpoche's response was that the lineage had disappeared (or words to that effect) - Kalu Rinpoche was in fact the lineage holder - but this occurred by the early 1980's at the latest.

If you meant that the current Kalu Rinpoche himself is not the lineage - this depends. He is apparently a lineage holder now. He has had a rough life and has said that he is attempting to reform the Shangpa institution. If his Bodhicitta is pure and his wisdom is strong then ultimately there will be benefit.


Kirt
Last edited by kirtu on Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
Aryjna
Posts: 1120
Joined: Mon Mar 27, 2017 12:45 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Aryjna » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:40 pm

kirtu wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:36 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:19 pm
Quay wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:17 pm


In the Vajrayana system he is the lineage. He teaches Shangpa Kagyu including the empowerments and practices. So no, he has not renounced the lineage or gone of on a wild tangent.
Tulku or not, he is not the lineage is the Vajrayana system.
Yes Shangpa is a lineage of Tibetan Buddhism specifically a Kagyu lineage. The thing is that it's practices generally were absorbed by many other schools over time. So someone else who knows the history can relate that but at least during the lifetime of HE Kalu Rinpoche (Karma Rangjung Künkhyab Thrinle , 1905-1989) the lineage was at least "reasserted" and appears to have been "reestablished" as a lineage. HE Bokar Rinpoche was the successor of HE Kalu Rinpoche.

It's true that a western student of HE Kalu Rinpoche asked him once about the Shangpa lineage and Kalu Rinpoche's response was that the lineage had disappeared (or words to that effect) - Kalu Rinpoche was in fact the lineage holder - but this occurred by the early 1980's at the latest.


Kirt
I mean that just because someone is a tulku that does not mean that they do not need samaya with a teacher and connection with a lineage, as it seemed Quay was suggesting. But maybe that is not what he meant.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4940
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by conebeckham » Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:50 pm

Quay wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:17 pm
Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 9:27 am
... if he has renounced the whole thing and gone against his lineage for whatever reasons justified or not, why would he want to give teachings anyway? And if he is giving teachings, does he teach Vajrayana, or personal stuff unrelated to lineage?
In the Vajrayana system he is the lineage. He teaches Shangpa Kagyu including the empowerments and practices. So no, he has not renounced the lineage or gone of on a wild tangent.

narraboth wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:00 am
I am puzzle how a highest status tulku in the temple can be abused by lower ranking monk like a common child. Not saying that it's impossible but the power imbalance that often seen in other sexual abuse was not there....
You've got the answer to your own question in that first sentence. He was recognized as a tulku and the reincarnation of the previous Kalu Rinpoche then sent to a monastery where he was indeed treated like a common child. Monks are human and have to deal with things like jealousy, politics, and all kinds of things a cloistered institution can bring with it. Including rape.

The power imbalance is simple to see: a child among grown men.
I've known Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche since he was about 6 years old, when I first met him. I have been to Sonada monastery several times. I also know many of the previous Kalu Rinpoche's disciples, Western and Asian.
I would not say Rinpoche was ever treated as a "common child." Rinpoche's father died when Rinpoche was rather young, and his root guru, Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, also passed away before Rinpoche was in retreat. I would think these events would have left their mark. I also know Lamas who were in retreat with Rinpoche at Mirik Monastery. I am not saying things did or did not happen, I do not know, but I've heard many versions of several stories, and I think events may be perceived in different ways. The tradition of "discipline" in monasteries, even with young Tulkus, would be seen as primitive or barbaric by those of us who grew up in the "modern West." Corporal Punishment is being phased out at most monasteries, but change is slow.

As I said earlier, I am not going to advance gossip or take sides here, but I will say that Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche has clearly been endorsed by His Eminence Tai Situ Rinpoche, in writing, as the holder of the previous Kalu Rinpoche's transmission and he has not "gone against his lineage" in terms of Dharma transmission, etc. However, Rinpoche himself said that he mostly wasted his retreat in sleep, though he practiced Chenrezig a lot. He himself said this, in San Francisco several years ago, during his first West Coast appearances after his retreat. I heard this with my own ears. As for the accounts Rinpoche has given of his mistreatment in retreat and at the monasteries, and as for the accounts of the monastic body reflected in that letter, I would simply say that there is a clear difference of opinion regarding what has taken place, and how things were perceived by various parties. This is an ongoing struggle, honestly, and unless there is a complete investigation, etc., I don't think things will be resolved. It's sad that the monastic body or someone associated with administration felt the need to write that letter, but they must have felt there was a need. They allege that their source of funding for food and survival was blocked, amongst other allegations. The allegation that some Lamas who were disciples of the previous Kalu Rinpoche were removed from centers is true, I have some knowledge of this. However, there may have been some good reasons for this removal. Kalu Rinpoche himself has written and spoken about this, on the internet, in the past.

Not knowing everything, and hearing various sides of all of these stories, I can only say that, for me, personally, I am not going to get swept up with either side of the struggle. I respect Yangsi Rinpoche as the holder of lineage, but I am not Rinpoche's disciple. I am concerned regarding the monastic body at Sonada, but I cannot vet their account, as I have no access to all of the information that would be needed to verify the allegations. There are a lot of stories. I would think that, if this continues to play out publically, there will have to be a proper investigation. I do not know if that will happen.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
Quay
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Quay » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:03 pm

I like Cone's reply a lot. It accords with my own experience.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

User avatar
Harimoo
Posts: 84
Joined: Sun Sep 07, 2014 6:57 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Harimoo » Wed Sep 19, 2018 4:52 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:12 am
Gotta agree with Simon here. Tulku system really seems to be just a source of trouble at this point in history.
With or without the tulku system, it's always a mess when a great guru dies and new one got to be in charge.

User avatar
Quay
Posts: 328
Joined: Mon May 16, 2016 6:07 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Quay » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:44 pm

Aryjna wrote:
Wed Sep 19, 2018 3:40 pm
...
I mean that just because someone is a tulku that does not mean that they do not need samaya with a teacher and connection with a lineage, as it seemed Quay was suggesting. But maybe that is not what he meant.
It is not and sorry for any confusion. I was assuming that when someone is known as a Vajrayana lineage holder, in this case the lineage holder of the Shangpa Kagyu lineage, that it would be generally known what that entails. Which of course includes the various connections, samayas, and accomplishments.
"Knowledge is as infinite as the stars in the sky;
There is no end to all the subjects one could study.
It is better to grasp straight away their very essence--
The unchanging fortress of the Dharmakaya."

– Longchenpa.

Dvs
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:24 am

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Dvs » Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 am

[/quote]
Corporal Punishment is being phased out at most monasteries, but change is slow.
[/quote]

Is it common practice to abuse kids in monasteries? Is that what the buddha taught? It seems like there's no difference in Buddhist monks and the Romain Catholic priest. The truth always comes out. This is why blind path is stupid and dangerous. I'm not saying all monks are bad, just like not all priest are bad. But If an organisation hide these kind of atrocities, then you have to question if the organisation is good.

Please understand I'm not attacking you, but what you said disturbs me greatly. These people need to be brought to the police and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if this really happened. If you don't stop those people they will prey on other children.


cor·po·ral pun·ish·ment
ˈkôrp(ə)rəl ˈpəniSHmənt/Submit
noun
Physical punishment, such as caning or flogging.
Punishment under law that includes imprisonment and death.

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4940
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by conebeckham » Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:06 pm

Dvs wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 am
Corporal Punishment is being phased out at most monasteries, but change is slow.
Is it common practice to abuse kids in monasteries? Is that what the buddha taught? It seems like there's no difference in Buddhist monks and the Romain Catholic priest. The truth always comes out. This is why blind path is stupid and dangerous. I'm not saying all monks are bad, just like not all priest are bad. But If an organisation hide these kind of atrocities, then you have to question if the organisation is good.

Please understand I'm not attacking you, but what you said disturbs me greatly. These people need to be brought to the police and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if this really happened. If you don't stop those people they will prey on other children.


cor·po·ral pun·ish·ment
ˈkôrp(ə)rəl ˈpəniSHmənt/Submit
noun
Physical punishment, such as caning or flogging.
Punishment under law that includes imprisonment and death.
Throughout the world, until the last few decades, corporal punishment was the norm. In many places, throughout the world, it is still acceptable. In the United States, there are even movements to re-institute corporal punishment, and the movement has supporters.

I do not support corporal punishment, in general. I also try to avoid generalizations when possible, but they're inevitable.
I believe, however, that "abuse" is a loaded term. Perhaps it would be good to spend some time in the monasteries, and in cultural areas outside of one's own, to gain some perspective.

I also want to be clear that I differentiate between "preying on children," and sexual abuse, etc., and disciplinary actions. Also I will point out that by the definition you quoted, punishment under law including death, or even imprisonment, are found in many countries throughout the globe, including the USA.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
SonamTashi
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by SonamTashi » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:40 am

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:06 pm
Dvs wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 am
Corporal Punishment is being phased out at most monasteries, but change is slow.
Is it common practice to abuse kids in monasteries? Is that what the buddha taught? It seems like there's no difference in Buddhist monks and the Romain Catholic priest. The truth always comes out. This is why blind path is stupid and dangerous. I'm not saying all monks are bad, just like not all priest are bad. But If an organisation hide these kind of atrocities, then you have to question if the organisation is good.

Please understand I'm not attacking you, but what you said disturbs me greatly. These people need to be brought to the police and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if this really happened. If you don't stop those people they will prey on other children.


cor·po·ral pun·ish·ment
ˈkôrp(ə)rəl ˈpəniSHmənt/Submit
noun
Physical punishment, such as caning or flogging.
Punishment under law that includes imprisonment and death.
Throughout the world, until the last few decades, corporal punishment was the norm. In many places, throughout the world, it is still acceptable. In the United States, there are even movements to re-institute corporal punishment, and the movement has supporters.

I do not support corporal punishment, in general. I also try to avoid generalizations when possible, but they're inevitable.
I believe, however, that "abuse" is a loaded term. Perhaps it would be good to spend some time in the monasteries, and in cultural areas outside of one's own, to gain some perspective.

I also want to be clear that I differentiate between "preying on children," and sexual abuse, etc., and disciplinary actions. Also I will point out that by the definition you quoted, punishment under law including death, or even imprisonment, are found in many countries throughout the globe, including the USA.
:good:

The idea of what abuse is has changed drastically over the last few decades and centuries. A lot of cultures haven't experienced those changes. It is unfair to condemn other cultures based on the cultural norms of one's own culture. That's textbook ethnocentrism. That doesn't mean I think corporal punishment is good, but it really is unfair to condemn cultures on the other side of the world based on my own culture's standards from over here on my couch.
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:

User avatar
passel
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:30 am

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by passel » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:47 am

Except. The kids.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

Dvs
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:24 am

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Dvs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:48 am

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:06 pm
Dvs wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 am
Corporal Punishment is being phased out at most monasteries, but change is slow.
Is it common practice to abuse kids in monasteries? Is that what the buddha taught? It seems like there's no difference in Buddhist monks and the Romain Catholic priest. The truth always comes out. This is why blind path is stupid and dangerous. I'm not saying all monks are bad, just like not all priest are bad. But If an organisation hide these kind of atrocities, then you have to question if the organisation is good.

Please understand I'm not attacking you, but what you said disturbs me greatly. These people need to be brought to the police and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if this really happened. If you don't stop those people they will prey on other children.


cor·po·ral pun·ish·ment
ˈkôrp(ə)rəl ˈpəniSHmənt/Submit
noun
Physical punishment, such as caning or flogging.
Punishment under law that includes imprisonment and death.
Throughout the world, until the last few decades, corporal punishment was the norm. In many places, throughout the world, it is still acceptable. In the United States, there are even movements to re-institute corporal punishment, and the movement has supporters.

I do not support corporal punishment, in general. I also try to avoid generalizations when possible, but they're inevitable.
I believe, however, that "abuse" is a loaded term. Perhaps it would be good to spend some time in the monasteries, and in cultural areas outside of one's own, to gain some perspective.

I also want to be clear that I differentiate between "preying on children," and sexual abuse, etc., and disciplinary actions. Also I will point out that by the definition you quoted, punishment under law including death, or even imprisonment, are found in many countries throughout the globe, including the USA.
Just because something is acceptable doesn't make it right, I think we could both agree on that.

I do live in a country and culture outside my own. I've lived and worked in Thailand for some time. So, I have spent a lot of time in and around Buddhist culture and monasteries. Obviously in the Theravada tradition, but there is always still more to learn.

Why do you keep referencing the US? There is nothing special about the US in my opinion.

Kalu Rinpoche does talk about sexual abuse as a child by other monks. This should be investigated

I want to reiterate I was not attacking you. I’ve read many of your post on DW, you have a lot of knowledge about Tibetan Dharma, also a love of helping others to learn about the Dharma. I assume that’s why you contribute to this forum.


I just think we need to show compassion for someone that claims to have experienced abuse by someone else, and a responsibility to make sure that future children can grow up in an environment free of abuse.

I don’t want to argue with you. I am just expressing my thoughts about the situation, albeit probably not in the best way possible. If I offended, you I’m sorry.

I would rather talk about Dharma with you. I hope you have a wonderful day or evening. I’m not quite sure where you are geographically.

User avatar
passel
Posts: 491
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2012 5:30 am

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by passel » Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:54 am

I’m 100% prepared to say that, to the extent that the TB or any other tradition uses physical violence against children in lieu of pedagogy, that tradition is to be abandoned. If its essentials are salvageable, so be it. If its essentials rely on violence against children, then it can die in a hole as far as I care.
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

Dvs
Posts: 18
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:24 am

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by Dvs » Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:01 am

SonamTashi wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:40 am
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:06 pm
Dvs wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 am


Is it common practice to abuse kids in monasteries? Is that what the buddha taught? It seems like there's no difference in Buddhist monks and the Romain Catholic priest. The truth always comes out. This is why blind path is stupid and dangerous. I'm not saying all monks are bad, just like not all priest are bad. But If an organisation hide these kind of atrocities, then you have to question if the organisation is good.

Please understand I'm not attacking you, but what you said disturbs me greatly. These people need to be brought to the police and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if this really happened. If you don't stop those people they will prey on other children.


cor·po·ral pun·ish·ment
ˈkôrp(ə)rəl ˈpəniSHmənt/Submit
noun
Physical punishment, such as caning or flogging.
Punishment under law that includes imprisonment and death.
Throughout the world, until the last few decades, corporal punishment was the norm. In many places, throughout the world, it is still acceptable. In the United States, there are even movements to re-institute corporal punishment, and the movement has supporters.

I do not support corporal punishment, in general. I also try to avoid generalizations when possible, but they're inevitable.
I believe, however, that "abuse" is a loaded term. Perhaps it would be good to spend some time in the monasteries, and in cultural areas outside of one's own, to gain some perspective.

I also want to be clear that I differentiate between "preying on children," and sexual abuse, etc., and disciplinary actions. Also I will point out that by the definition you quoted, punishment under law including death, or even imprisonment, are found in many countries throughout the globe, including the USA.
:good:

The idea of what abuse is has changed drastically over the last few decades and centuries. A lot of cultures haven't experienced those changes. It is unfair to condemn other cultures based on the cultural norms of one's own culture. That's textbook ethnocentrism. That doesn't mean I think corporal punishment is good, but it really is unfair to condemn cultures on the other side of the world based on my own culture's standards from over here on my couch.
I didn’t condemn any culture or country in my comment. I think we are all born with a universal knowledge of what’s right and wrong. Punishment and abuse are two different things; I think we all can understand that.

User avatar
kirtu
Former staff member
Posts: 6175
Joined: Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:29 pm
Location: Baltimore, MD

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by kirtu » Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:17 am

passel wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:54 am
I’m 100% prepared to say that, to the extent that the TB or any other tradition uses physical violence against children in lieu of pedagogy, that tradition is to be abandoned. If its essentials are salvageable, so be it. If its essentials rely on violence against children, then it can die in a hole as far as I care.
Practically the totality of my experience of American culture is it's institutionalization of violence against children. Thankfully that changed somewhat but I still see a lot of violence against children still (just less than before).

TB is undergoing some enforced change. While the reports from some monasteries are truly disheartening (actually, that's not quite the right word, they are criminal in these extreme cases after all) I have never seen Tibetan parents physically or verbally attack their children in public - something that used to be quite common amoungst Americans - I have in fact seen it within the past five years.

Kirt
Kirt's Tibetan Translation Notes

"Even if you practice only for an hour a day with faith and inspiration, good qualities will steadily increase. Regular practice makes it easy to transform your mind. From seeing only relative truth, you will eventually reach a profound certainty in the meaning of absolute truth."
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche.

"Only you can make your mind beautiful."
HH Chetsang Rinpoche

User avatar
conebeckham
Posts: 4940
Joined: Mon Jun 14, 2010 11:49 pm
Location: Bay Area, CA, USA

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by conebeckham » Fri Sep 21, 2018 5:57 pm

Dvs wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:48 am
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:06 pm
Dvs wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 8:48 am


Is it common practice to abuse kids in monasteries? Is that what the buddha taught? It seems like there's no difference in Buddhist monks and the Romain Catholic priest. The truth always comes out. This is why blind path is stupid and dangerous. I'm not saying all monks are bad, just like not all priest are bad. But If an organisation hide these kind of atrocities, then you have to question if the organisation is good.

Please understand I'm not attacking you, but what you said disturbs me greatly. These people need to be brought to the police and prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if this really happened. If you don't stop those people they will prey on other children.


cor·po·ral pun·ish·ment
ˈkôrp(ə)rəl ˈpəniSHmənt/Submit
noun
Physical punishment, such as caning or flogging.
Punishment under law that includes imprisonment and death.
Throughout the world, until the last few decades, corporal punishment was the norm. In many places, throughout the world, it is still acceptable. In the United States, there are even movements to re-institute corporal punishment, and the movement has supporters.

I do not support corporal punishment, in general. I also try to avoid generalizations when possible, but they're inevitable.
I believe, however, that "abuse" is a loaded term. Perhaps it would be good to spend some time in the monasteries, and in cultural areas outside of one's own, to gain some perspective.

I also want to be clear that I differentiate between "preying on children," and sexual abuse, etc., and disciplinary actions. Also I will point out that by the definition you quoted, punishment under law including death, or even imprisonment, are found in many countries throughout the globe, including the USA.
Just because something is acceptable doesn't make it right, I think we could both agree on that.

I do live in a country and culture outside my own. I've lived and worked in Thailand for some time. So, I have spent a lot of time in and around Buddhist culture and monasteries. Obviously in the Theravada tradition, but there is always still more to learn.

Why do you keep referencing the US? There is nothing special about the US in my opinion.

Kalu Rinpoche does talk about sexual abuse as a child by other monks. This should be investigated

I want to reiterate I was not attacking you. I’ve read many of your post on DW, you have a lot of knowledge about Tibetan Dharma, also a love of helping others to learn about the Dharma. I assume that’s why you contribute to this forum.


I just think we need to show compassion for someone that claims to have experienced abuse by someone else, and a responsibility to make sure that future children can grow up in an environment free of abuse.

I don’t want to argue with you. I am just expressing my thoughts about the situation, albeit probably not in the best way possible. If I offended, you I’m sorry.

I would rather talk about Dharma with you. I hope you have a wonderful day or evening. I’m not quite sure where you are geographically.

Thanks. I live in the SF Bay Area. So, good morning!
I made some assumptions as well, based on your initial post. I see Americans issuing judgements about the cultural values of "non-western cultures" and assumed you were an American living here in the USA. But I don't think you and I disagree, and I am not taking anything personally, nor do I feel any personal animus toward you.

With regard to the topic of the thread, Yangsi Kalu Rinpoche has made some allegations, but has not pressed for any legal remedy as far as I know. And I am not sure how that would work, in India or anywhere, frankly. On the other side, the "monastic body" has made allegations, as well. Again, no legal proceedings have been instituted, to the best of my knowledge. Frankly, it's my impression that the "Powers That Be" don't want to enter into such proceedings, on either side, but I think that in general, in such situations, these things are eventualities. It would be wonderful if all parties could come to a satisfactory resolution. Perhaps they will. I also think "mediation" with some third party may be beneficial. But right now I see no path toward progress. We'll see.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

User avatar
KeithA
Posts: 158
Joined: Tue May 24, 2011 11:02 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by KeithA » Sat Sep 22, 2018 5:24 am

:good:
passel wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:47 am
Except. The kids.

User avatar
SonamTashi
Posts: 130
Joined: Mon Jan 02, 2017 7:30 pm

Re: Situation of Kalu Rinpoche

Post by SonamTashi » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:53 am

Dvs wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:01 am
SonamTashi wrote:
Fri Sep 21, 2018 6:40 am
conebeckham wrote:
Thu Sep 20, 2018 5:06 pm


Throughout the world, until the last few decades, corporal punishment was the norm. In many places, throughout the world, it is still acceptable. In the United States, there are even movements to re-institute corporal punishment, and the movement has supporters.

I do not support corporal punishment, in general. I also try to avoid generalizations when possible, but they're inevitable.
I believe, however, that "abuse" is a loaded term. Perhaps it would be good to spend some time in the monasteries, and in cultural areas outside of one's own, to gain some perspective.

I also want to be clear that I differentiate between "preying on children," and sexual abuse, etc., and disciplinary actions. Also I will point out that by the definition you quoted, punishment under law including death, or even imprisonment, are found in many countries throughout the globe, including the USA.
:good:

The idea of what abuse is has changed drastically over the last few decades and centuries. A lot of cultures haven't experienced those changes. It is unfair to condemn other cultures based on the cultural norms of one's own culture. That's textbook ethnocentrism. That doesn't mean I think corporal punishment is good, but it really is unfair to condemn cultures on the other side of the world based on my own culture's standards from over here on my couch.
I didn’t condemn any culture or country in my comment. I think we are all born with a universal knowledge of what’s right and wrong. Punishment and abuse are two different things; I think we all can understand that.
Oh yes, I definitely agree, and I didn't mean to imply that you condemned any other culture, although I could see how it came off that way. I was mainly just speaking for myself.
:bow: :buddha1: :bow: :anjali: :meditate:

Post Reply

Return to “Kagyu”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Cmjd3055, Josef and 21 guests