Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

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如傑優婆塞
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Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by 如傑優婆塞 » Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:36 am

Here is the English transcript of the joint statement:
His Holiness Ogyen Trinley Dorje and His Holiness Trinley Thaye Dorje met over the last few days at a rural location in France. Their purpose was to get to know each other personally. They also discussed how they might work together to preserve and strengthen the Karma Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism.
More here

Miroku
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Miroku » Thu Oct 11, 2018 12:09 pm

如傑優婆塞 wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 11:36 am
Here is the English transcript of the joint statement:
His Holiness Ogyen Trinley Dorje and His Holiness Trinley Thaye Dorje met over the last few days at a rural location in France. Their purpose was to get to know each other personally. They also discussed how they might work together to preserve and strengthen the Karma Kagyu lineage of Tibetan Buddhism.
More here
:twothumbsup: :woohoo:

This is amazing! Really, so perfect.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

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passel
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by passel » Thu Oct 11, 2018 1:25 pm

good news
"I have made a heap of all that I have met"- Svetonious

Gatinho
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Gatinho » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:23 pm

Excellent news - I have been waiting and hoping for this to happen.

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:42 pm

Wow! This is a turn up for the books. Although I believe Karmapa Ogyen Trinley had hinted at some efforts in this regard recently. Don't know how they are going to heal the rift but delighted to see they are working on it. Let's hope something comes of it.

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Garudavista
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Garudavista » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:32 pm

This is wonderful news! Thank you for sharing it. :twothumbsup:

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Vasana
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Vasana » Thu Oct 11, 2018 5:40 pm

I rejoice in their combined skillful means here and pray that their compassionate activities may be spontaneously accomplished. May any intra-sectarian divisions and suspicions be healed for Lamas, teachers and students alike.
'When alone, watch your mind. When with others, watch your speech'- Old Kadampa saying.

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conebeckham
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by conebeckham » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:42 pm

Such good news! :smile:
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Monlam Tharchin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:11 pm

For the benefit of beings. :heart: What a wonderful example for us all.
namuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabunamuamidabu

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Everything is in their presence; and I stand in front of them. -- Shantideva

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sherabpa
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by sherabpa » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:13 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:42 pm
Don't know how they are going to heal the rift
I guess they can work together to ensure we only have one 18th Karmapa, one Shamarpa etc. going forward. The rift can easily be healed if there is the will from this generation of lamas.
This is such wonderful news for both 'sides'. Karmapa khyenno!!

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anjali
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by anjali » Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:29 pm

Just speculation on my part, but given the recent health concerns of Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, there may have been some incentive to make this kind of meeting happen. (As far as I know, there are no current health concerns for either Karmapa.)

For example, very likely, one will pass before the other. An important point of discussion would most certainly be how to handle that, and whether/how the remaining Karmapa would then assume responsibility for both branches.

In the meantime, hopefully we will see greater collaboration. :heart: :group:
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Kelwin
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Kelwin » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:19 pm

Truly wonderful news, and an example for us all :thumbsup:
'I will not take your feelings seriously, and neither will you' -Lama Lena

Simon E.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Simon E. » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:32 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:42 pm
Such good news! :smile:
Joyful.
Heartfelt salutations to both Precious Teachers.
And to all of the followers of each.

:namaste: :namaste: :namaste:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:45 pm

Excellent news, we Buddhists really need to get along.

People often quote the Buddha as saying the dharma will not be destroyed from outside forces but from within.

May there be harmony among all lineages.

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:52 am

anjali wrote:
Thu Oct 11, 2018 7:29 pm
Just speculation on my part, but given the recent health concerns of Karmapa Ogyen Trinley, there may have been some incentive to make this kind of meeting happen. (As far as I know, there are no current health concerns for either Karmapa.)

For example, very likely, one will pass before the other. An important point of discussion would most certainly be how to handle that, and whether/how the remaining Karmapa would then assume responsibility for both branches.

In the meantime, hopefully we will see greater collaboration. :heart: :group:
I think that Ogyen Trinley’s health was only part of the reason he was in the US. I think he was so frustrated by the Indian Govt’s control over his movements both in India and internationally, he decided to leave for a while. As a refugee he would have had to rely on Indian travel documents and seek the Govt’s permission every time he wanted to leave the country. During his time abroad he has obtained a Dominican passport and so can now travel freely outside of India without the Indian Govt’s permission.

I don’t think we can really speculate on what the meeting of the two leaders might bring forth. It all looks very tentative at the moment. I imagine both teachers are getting to know each other, hopefully listening carefully to the other’s thoughts and concerns, and exploring what might be possible.

I don’t think we should expect any game-changing announcements anytime soon, though.

However, given Ogyen Trinley’s new freedom to move around, a softening of India’s approach to him (as seen in his permission to visit Sikkim), Thaye Dorje marrying and becoming a father, and now this meeting of the two, it’s certainly a time of positive change across the lineage after so many years of division. Let’s hope it bears positive fruit for all concerned.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Miroku
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Miroku » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:02 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 8:52 am
I think that Ogyen Trinley’s health was only part of the reason he was in the US. I think he was so frustrated by the Indian Govt’s control over his movements both in India and internationally, he decided to leave for a while. As a refugee he would have had to rely on Indian travel documents and seek the Govt’s permission every time he wanted to leave the country. During his time abroad he has obtained a Dominican passport and so can now travel freely outside of India without the Indian Govt’s permission.

I don’t think we can really speculate on what the meeting of the two leaders might bring forth. It all looks very tentative at the moment. I imagine both teachers are getting to know each other, hopefully listening carefully to the other’s thoughts and concerns, and exploring what might be possible.

I don’t think we should expect any game-changing announcements anytime soon, though.

However, given Ogyen Trinley’s new freedom to move around, a softening of India’s approach to him (as seen in his permission to visit Sikkim), Thaye Dorje marrying and becoming a father, and now this meeting of the two, it’s certainly a time of positive change across the lineage after so many years of division. Let’s hope it bears positive fruit for all concerned.
Can't agree more. Plus lets be honest. The issued statement is mostly full of empty words. The best thing about it is that they got to hang out with each other. Other than that nothing much has changed really. But I hope the division will be healed and there will be pressure on certain lamas on both sides that got caught up in the sectarian nonsense to open up.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Simon E.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Simon E. » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:23 am

Either 'nothing has changed' OR there is 'pressure on certain Lamas (and lay people) caught up in sectarian nonsense to open up'..both statements can't be true I would suggest :smile:

Anyway, back to fishin'..

:namaste:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

dzoki
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by dzoki » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:24 am

I am very happy that this meeting occured. I hope that the first visible step forward would be to organize joint Karma Kagyu monlam presided by both Karmapas, instead of having two separate ones.

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:30 am

dzoki wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:24 am
I am very happy that this meeting occured. I hope that the first visible step forward would be to organize joint Karma Kagyu monlam presided by both Karmapas, instead of having two separate ones.
As I said, it's probably too soon to start creating expectations of where this could lead. Doing so will invariably lead to disappointment.

I, for one, am going to take a leaf out of the Zen practitioner's book and adopt "don't know mind" for while.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

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Berry
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Berry » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:14 pm

Leave the polluted water of conceptual thoughts in its natural clarity. Without affirming or denying appearances, leave them as they are. When there is neither acceptance nor rejection, mind is liberated into mahāmudra.

~ Tilopa

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