Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

mandog
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by mandog » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:40 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:36 pm
mandog wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:32 pm
from Beru Khyentse Rinpoche...

https://www.facebook.com/BeruKhyentseRi ... =3&theater
Do you think that this is party line for both sides? Or is just what Beru Khyentse R hopes will be beneficial at the present time?
I don't know.

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Seeker12 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:00 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:36 pm
mandog wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:32 pm
from Beru Khyentse Rinpoche...

https://www.facebook.com/BeruKhyentseRi ... =3&theater
Do you think that this is party line for both sides? Or is just what Beru Khyentse R hopes will be beneficial at the present time?
I would take that as his personal opinion unless anything else comes out. In general, at this point it seems to me that speculation is more or less pointless and worthless. I imagine any formal statement from either Karmapa on the matter will be labeled as such.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Grigoris » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:06 pm

Beru Khyentse always favored recognition of both candidates.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by kirtu » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:11 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:06 pm
Beru Khyentse always favored recognition of both candidates.
:anjali:

Which was also what Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche advised.

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Seeker12 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:38 pm

kirtu wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:11 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:06 pm
Beru Khyentse always favored recognition of both candidates.
:anjali:

Which was also what Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche advised.

Kirt
That seems problematic long-term, however, for example if one dies and the other lives another 10-20 years - what would happen to the lineage moving forward, simply always having 2 Karmapas?

As others in this thread have said, as far as I know it's always been clear that there is only one Karmapa at a time in terms of the function. Of course there may be other emanations but they wouldn't perform the function of the Karmapa.

But those are just thoughts from somebody on the internet, so what do they matter.
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And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Miroku » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:18 pm

Seeker12 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:38 pm

As others in this thread have said, as far as I know it's always been clear that there is only one Karmapa at a time in terms of the function. Of course there may be other emanations but they wouldn't perform the function of the Karmapa.

But those are just thoughts from somebody on the internet, so what do they matter.
Things can change. Drikung used to be lead by members of one clan but now has two heads. Dalailama is probably choosing his successor now. And Sakya has also changed. If it is wha it takes to hold the lineage together and not break samayas then why not.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:35 am

Miroku wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:18 pm
Things can change. Drikung used to be lead by members of one clan but now has two heads. Dalailama is probably choosing his successor now. And Sakya has also changed. If it is wha it takes to hold the lineage together and not break samayas then why not.
Indeed, there is change throughout how lineages are organized. There has been some persistent rumors that HHDL's health is failing and I think he is keen to leave the Tibetan community in as stable a condition as possible. After he dies there will be an extended period of crisis and I would not be surprised to learn that he has been an encouraging figure in the recent rapprochement between the two Karma Kagyu leaders. A fractured Karma Kagyu gives China (and, let's be honest, maybe India too) a chance to meddle in Tibetan exile community affairs.

I think it is important that we don't make any assumptions about what a solution could look like or insist on pre-conditions before any deal is made.

Before this is all over, those of us on all sides in the Karma Kagyu will have to swallow our pride, think the unthinkable and maybe make concessions that were never made in the history of the lineage.

Neither side should think that the "other Karmapa" is just going to give up and hand it all over to "our Karmapa". But also, each side must be prepared to follow the candidate if a sole Karmapa is agreed and he is not the one we used to follow. The lineage and the teachings are more important than the personalities in the end.

Some folks won't of course but they will have to be left behind if they won't come along (Jeez, there are still come folks that really haven't moved on from the death of Karmapa XVI).

Interesting times.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Gatinho » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:28 pm

Honestly if this is about who is to be CEO Karma Kagyu Inc. then I can imagine each begging the other to take the job!

Apart from that the samaya and commitments between each and their students has been established and there is little to be done about that. Speaking for myself it would make no difference to me if the Karmapa I 'follow' gave up the role of being head of the order - I would just carry on as I am now.

Also to consider is that having been recognised by their respective teachers - is it even possible for either to say now that they are not the Karmapa without breaking their commitments to their teachers??????

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:13 pm

Gatinho wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:28 pm
Also to consider is that having been recognised by their respective teachers - is it even possible for either to say now that they are not the Karmapa without breaking their commitments to their teachers??????
I don't think that will be an issue. Either they will fudge it and one could have a Karmapa emeritus kinda deal (like Pope emeritus Benedict) or even just because such a resignation is in the long term interest of the lineage - which surely is the intent of their teachers too.

For sure, one thing that must NOT happen if this is to work, is the arrival of the samaya police. Once people start claiming others have broken samaya, it never ends well.

A newspaper article on the implications of the meeting:

https://theprint.in/opinion/2-karmapas- ... way/134917
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Gatinho » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:08 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:13 pm
Gatinho wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:28 pm
Also to consider is that having been recognised by their respective teachers - is it even possible for either to say now that they are not the Karmapa without breaking their commitments to their teachers??????
I don't think that will be an issue. Either they will fudge it and one could have a Karmapa emeritus kinda deal (like Pope emeritus Benedict) or even just because such a resignation is in the long term interest of the lineage - which surely is the intent of their teachers too.

For sure, one thing that must NOT happen if this is to work, is the arrival of the samaya police. Once people start claiming others have broken samaya, it never ends well.

A newspaper article on the implications of the meeting:

https://theprint.in/opinion/2-karmapas- ... way/134917
I wasn't referring in any sense to the arrival of the samaya police - as you put it - I was suggesting that they themselves will face this ethical dilemma. They are after all not self proclaimed but recognised by others. I don't even know if either of them would say absolutely that they are Karmapa but that they have been recognised as such by those that said this is who they are.

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Seeker12 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:39 pm

Gatinho wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:08 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:13 pm
Gatinho wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:28 pm
Also to consider is that having been recognised by their respective teachers - is it even possible for either to say now that they are not the Karmapa without breaking their commitments to their teachers??????
I don't think that will be an issue. Either they will fudge it and one could have a Karmapa emeritus kinda deal (like Pope emeritus Benedict) or even just because such a resignation is in the long term interest of the lineage - which surely is the intent of their teachers too.

For sure, one thing that must NOT happen if this is to work, is the arrival of the samaya police. Once people start claiming others have broken samaya, it never ends well.

A newspaper article on the implications of the meeting:

https://theprint.in/opinion/2-karmapas- ... way/134917
I wasn't referring in any sense to the arrival of the samaya police - as you put it - I was suggesting that they themselves will face this ethical dilemma. They are after all not self proclaimed but recognised by others. I don't even know if either of them would say absolutely that they are Karmapa but that they have been recognised as such by those that said this is who they are.
Thaye Dorje has, as I recall, stated that he started saying he was Karmapa at about the age of 1.5-2 years old or so.

There's an interview that gets into the topic a bit. It is in English despite the beginning.

FWIW.

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And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Gatinho » Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:53 pm

Seeker12 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:39 pm
Gatinho wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:08 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:13 pm


I don't think that will be an issue. Either they will fudge it and one could have a Karmapa emeritus kinda deal (like Pope emeritus Benedict) or even just because such a resignation is in the long term interest of the lineage - which surely is the intent of their teachers too.

For sure, one thing that must NOT happen if this is to work, is the arrival of the samaya police. Once people start claiming others have broken samaya, it never ends well.

A newspaper article on the implications of the meeting:

https://theprint.in/opinion/2-karmapas- ... way/134917
I wasn't referring in any sense to the arrival of the samaya police - as you put it - I was suggesting that they themselves will face this ethical dilemma. They are after all not self proclaimed but recognised by others. I don't even know if either of them would say absolutely that they are Karmapa but that they have been recognised as such by those that said this is who they are.
Thaye Dorje has, as I recall, stated that he started saying he was Karmapa at about the age of 1.5-2 years old or so.

There's an interview that gets into the topic a bit. It is in English despite the beginning.

FWIW.

Fair enough I hadn't seen that.

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Seeker12 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:45 pm

Gatinho wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:53 pm
Fair enough I hadn't seen that.
I fully understand that what I will say here may be ... off-putting to some, but so be it if so - we're all presumably adults who can manage our emotions reasonably well.

I do think it's interesting to contrast Thaye Dorje's statements as seen in that video with Orgyen Trinley's.

Thaye Dorje, in short, says that around 1.5 years of age he said that he was the Karmapa. When asked if he considered doing anything else, he basically says that 'that's not how this works', and describes how previous aspirations led to the continuation of activity in this life, and he never really had any doubt. That's generally all in the first few minutes of the video linked above.

Orgyen Trinley, as discussed in a link I will share at the end, basically said that until he was 7 years old he had no inkling whatsoever that he was the Karmapa - he says, "...all my family had before that point a very strong habit of regarding the Karmapa as a very precious, sacred being, but none of us thought that that person was going to be me". When the recognition party came, he initially thought that he would have more people to play with as a result of being called the Karmapa. He says, "I had 7 years of experience as an ordinary child and when I reflect on my life up until now, I feel that those 7 years were really the greatest joy that I have ever experienced". He says that "my initial thinking was very lighthearted. I didn’t consider it a very serious thing at that time."

Anyway, we will see what comes from this whole meeting and what-not, but it does seem to be a marked contrast to my eyes. FWIW.

Discussion of the latter interview here : https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comme ... oming_the/
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:52 pm

Come on let's turn this into another who's the real Karmapa thread.

Especially when we are going on the word of children - it proves nothing.

As a 3 year old I was convinced I was spider man.

The real Karmapa is the one who acts like one not just who says he is. Dawa Sangpo would be in the running if that were the case.

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Sonam Wangchug
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Sonam Wangchug » Wed Oct 17, 2018 12:38 am

Seeker12 wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:45 pm
Gatinho wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 7:53 pm
Fair enough I hadn't seen that.
I fully understand that what I will say here may be ... off-putting to some, but so be it if so - we're all presumably adults who can manage our emotions reasonably well.

I do think it's interesting to contrast Thaye Dorje's statements as seen in that video with Orgyen Trinley's.

Thaye Dorje, in short, says that around 1.5 years of age he said that he was the Karmapa. When asked if he considered doing anything else, he basically says that 'that's not how this works', and describes how previous aspirations led to the continuation of activity in this life, and he never really had any doubt. That's generally all in the first few minutes of the video linked above.

Orgyen Trinley, as discussed in a link I will share at the end, basically said that until he was 7 years old he had no inkling whatsoever that he was the Karmapa - he says, "...all my family had before that point a very strong habit of regarding the Karmapa as a very precious, sacred being, but none of us thought that that person was going to be me". When the recognition party came, he initially thought that he would have more people to play with as a result of being called the Karmapa. He says, "I had 7 years of experience as an ordinary child and when I reflect on my life up until now, I feel that those 7 years were really the greatest joy that I have ever experienced". He says that "my initial thinking was very lighthearted. I didn’t consider it a very serious thing at that time."

Anyway, we will see what comes from this whole meeting and what-not, but it does seem to be a marked contrast to my eyes. FWIW.

Discussion of the latter interview here : https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comme ... oming_the/
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by amanitamusc » Wed Oct 17, 2018 1:30 am

Maybe they will both recognize the same Sharmapa?

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by honestdboy » Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:18 am

If the 2 Karmapas can agree on the next Shamarpa, that will be a real cause for rejoicing. I think this Kagyu generation’s lamas can easily do a better job than the last generation did.

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:58 am

honestdboy wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:18 am
If the 2 Karmapas can agree on the next Shamarpa, that will be a real cause for rejoicing. I think this Kagyu generation’s lamas can easily do a better job than the last generation did.
I think if nothing else comes out of this, OTD will recognize TTD's son as Shamarpa (if of course TTD wishes that too).

Less likely, but not impossibly, is a recognized role for Beru Khyentse's son as Kongtrul Rinpoche. Although not sure if Kongtrul's labrang would agree with that.

I think we also need agreed guidelines on who recognizes major tulkus going forward. That's where all this trouble started. Previous Shamar thought it was his role alone. Not everybody agreed. That's an issue the lineage needs to avoid in the future.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Gatinho » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 10:58 am
honestdboy wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 9:18 am
If the 2 Karmapas can agree on the next Shamarpa, that will be a real cause for rejoicing. I think this Kagyu generation’s lamas can easily do a better job than the last generation did.
I think if nothing else comes out of this, OTD will recognize TTD's son as Shamarpa (if of course TTD wishes that too).

Less likely, but not impossibly, is a recognized role for Beru Khyentse's son as Kongtrul Rinpoche. Although not sure if Kongtrul's labrang would agree with that.

I think we also need agreed guidelines on who recognizes major tulkus going forward. That's where all this trouble started. Previous Shamar thought it was his role alone. Not everybody agreed. That's an issue the lineage needs to avoid in the future.
Have abandoned the idea that tulkus are actually tulkus? Or is it just political?

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:40 am

Gatinho wrote:
Wed Oct 17, 2018 11:33 am

Have abandoned the idea that tulkus are actually tulkus? Or is it just political?
Personally, I view it very cynically as all political. An useful tool for social organization perhaps in medieval times but useless now.

There is nothing in the Buddha's teachings about tulkus. A Tibetan invention.

Karmapa was the first tulku. Would be interesting if he were to be the start of a movement to retire the concept.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

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