Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
I think that, despite the paucity of information about this meeting, there are a couple of interesting points that I haven’t seen raised anywhere.
The first is that the meeting lasted over several days – unlike Ogyen Trinley’s meeting with Shamarpa in 2007 which only lasted an hour or two. Clearly they have had time to talk in-depth, socialize and no doubt pray together. This I think shows significant commitment on both their parts and this has gone beyond “talks about talks”.
Secondly, neither party is referred to as Karmapa in the press release. I don’t know if means anything for any eventual resolution but it is interesting.
The first is that the meeting lasted over several days – unlike Ogyen Trinley’s meeting with Shamarpa in 2007 which only lasted an hour or two. Clearly they have had time to talk in-depth, socialize and no doubt pray together. This I think shows significant commitment on both their parts and this has gone beyond “talks about talks”.
Secondly, neither party is referred to as Karmapa in the press release. I don’t know if means anything for any eventual resolution but it is interesting.
This is not the wrong life.
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Thanks for pointing that out, that is noteworthy.Knotty Veneer wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:48 pm
The first is that the meeting lasted over several days – unlike Ogyen Trinley’s meeting with Shamarpa in 2007 which only lasted an hour or two. Clearly they have had time to talk in-depth, socialize and no doubt pray together. This I think shows significant commitment on both their parts and this has gone beyond “talks about talks”.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Correct. I don't know how closely any of you interact with Tibetan Karma Kagyu community, but I know quite a few ex-monks who are "up in arms" about the meeting. Some are quite upset, and are citing prior statments by Lamas like Thrangu Rinpoche about "One Karmapa," etc. People have jumped to conclusions, it seems.....there was a meeting, but no statement or announcement of any weight regarding anything changing institutionally or in terms of identity. And those who seems displeased, don't they recognize that it was apparently the will of HHGK OTD to meet? As far as I can tell, at least......Knotty Veneer wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:48 pm I think that, despite the paucity of information about this meeting, there are a couple of interesting points that I haven’t seen raised anywhere.
The first is that the meeting lasted over several days – unlike Ogyen Trinley’s meeting with Shamarpa in 2007 which only lasted an hour or two. Clearly they have had time to talk in-depth, socialize and no doubt pray together. This I think shows significant commitment on both their parts and this has gone beyond “talks about talks”.
Secondly, neither party is referred to as Karmapa in the press release. I don’t know if means anything for any eventual resolution but it is interesting.
I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
“Lama Dramas” can be sooooo seductive!I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams
1.The problem isn’t ‘ignorance’. The problem is the mind you have right now. (H.H. Karmapa XVII @NYC 2/4/18)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
2. I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against lama abuse.
3. Student: Lama, I thought I might die but then I realized that the 3 Jewels would protect me.
Lama: Even If you had died the 3 Jewels would still have protected you. (DW post by Fortyeightvows)
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Both are, to some extent at least, victims of a political dharma situation (a drama perhaps!) and to be congratulated for stepping outside this to hopefully create a warm personal relationship of mutual understanding - if this is what has happened. Institutional change - if it ever comes - is secondary and we can wait for this. Compassion trumps hatred - I hope this is what this means. Even if the problems of etiquette and polity are never resolved they matter much less now.conebeckham wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pmCorrect. I don't know how closely any of you interact with Tibetan Karma Kagyu community, but I know quite a few ex-monks who are "up in arms" about the meeting. Some are quite upset, and are citing prior statments by Lamas like Thrangu Rinpoche about "One Karmapa," etc. People have jumped to conclusions, it seems.....there was a meeting, but no statement or announcement of any weight regarding anything changing institutionally or in terms of identity. And those who seems displeased, don't they recognize that it was apparently the will of HHGK OTD to meet? As far as I can tell, at least......Knotty Veneer wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:48 pm I think that, despite the paucity of information about this meeting, there are a couple of interesting points that I haven’t seen raised anywhere.
The first is that the meeting lasted over several days – unlike Ogyen Trinley’s meeting with Shamarpa in 2007 which only lasted an hour or two. Clearly they have had time to talk in-depth, socialize and no doubt pray together. This I think shows significant commitment on both their parts and this has gone beyond “talks about talks”.
Secondly, neither party is referred to as Karmapa in the press release. I don’t know if means anything for any eventual resolution but it is interesting.
I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Sorry to hear there are those who are not seeing this as something positive. And you're right this is an initiative that has been driven at least in equal part by Karmapa Ogyen Trinley.conebeckham wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm
Correct. I don't know how closely any of you interact with Tibetan Karma Kagyu community, but I know quite a few ex-monks who are "up in arms" about the meeting. Some are quite upset, and are citing prior statments by Lamas like Thrangu Rinpoche about "One Karmapa," etc. People have jumped to conclusions, it seems.....there was a meeting, but no statement or announcement of any weight regarding anything changing institutionally or in terms of identity. And those who seems displeased, don't they recognize that it was apparently the will of HHGK OTD to meet? As far as I can tell, at least......
I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
If the real problem is who gets to be Karmapa, then perhaps a "thinking- out-of-the-box" solution may be to retire the institution itself - just as the Dalai Lama has considered ending his role. Who knows?
I hope both leaders have the space and courage to ignore any vested interests for the good of the lineage as a whole.
This is not the wrong life.
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Do you know of any "fervent supporters" acting like schoolboys still on Thaye Dorje's side? All I have seen is happiness for the meeting.conebeckham wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm
I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Another interesting alternative would be to follow the approach of the Sakhya Trizin position: Sakya Trizin post to be alternated three-yearly between two ruling scionsKnotty Veneer wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 pm If the real problem is who gets to be Karmapa, then perhaps a "thinking- out-of-the-box" solution may be to retire the institution itself - just as the Dalai Lama has considered ending his role. Who knows?
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
To be frank, no.Seeker12 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 pmDo you know of any "fervent supporters" acting like schoolboys still on Thaye Dorje's side? All I have seen is happiness for the meeting.conebeckham wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm
I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
Also, to be clear, I was speaking of Tibetans and most especially of monks or ex-monks. Those Thaye Dorje supporters I know are all "Non-Tibetan," though I had some unpleasant interactions with Thaye Dorje Tibetans decades ago, in Sikkim. I hope everyone, on both sides of the issue, recognizes that both of these men are acting of their own free will, I believe, and for the benefit of the lineage.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།
"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
I'm most familiar with Thaye Dorje's side, and indeed early on there were tensions it seemed both ways but for a long time now it's basically been a non-issue from what I've seen. Universally, without any exceptions at all, the only response I've seen from people I know is happiness for the meeting.conebeckham wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:55 pm
To be frank, no.
Also, to be clear, I was speaking of Tibetans and most especially of monks or ex-monks. Those Thaye Dorje supporters I know are all "Non-Tibetan," though I had some unpleasant interactions with Thaye Dorje Tibetans decades ago, in Sikkim. I hope everyone, on both sides of the issue, recognizes that both of these men are acting of their own free will, I believe, and for the benefit of the lineage.
Anyway, I was just curious, as I hadn't seen any problems. Thanks.
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
That could certainly be a possibility. Although the 16th Karmapa's 4 regents were supposed to rotate leadership every 3 years in the period after Karmapa XVI's death and that didn't really work out. Maybe this generation could make it work. Again, who knows?anjali wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:38 pmAnother interesting alternative would be to follow the approach of the Sakhya Trizin position: Sakya Trizin post to be alternated three-yearly between two ruling scionsKnotty Veneer wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 pm If the real problem is who gets to be Karmapa, then perhaps a "thinking- out-of-the-box" solution may be to retire the institution itself - just as the Dalai Lama has considered ending his role. Who knows?
This is not the wrong life.
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Knotty Veneer wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:47 pmThat could certainly be a possibility. Although the 16th Karmapa's 4 regents were supposed to rotate leadership every 3 years in the period after Karmapa XVI's death and that didn't really work out. Maybe this generation could make it work. Again, who knows?anjali wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:38 pmAnother interesting alternative would be to follow the approach of the Sakhya Trizin position: Sakya Trizin post to be alternated three-yearly between two ruling scionsKnotty Veneer wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 pm If the real problem is who gets to be Karmapa, then perhaps a "thinking- out-of-the-box" solution may be to retire the institution itself - just as the Dalai Lama has considered ending his role. Who knows?
Wouldn't that knock the whole tulku thing on the head? If being the Karmapa is just a role or post - like being CEO of Karma Kagyu Inc.
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
You have to allow for human error. Even here.
'Only practice with no gaining idea' ~ Suzuki Roshi
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Has Ole Pronounced yet?Seeker12 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 pmDo you know of any "fervent supporters" acting like schoolboys still on Thaye Dorje's side? All I have seen is happiness for the meeting.conebeckham wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm
I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
“You don’t know it. You just know about it. That is not the same thing.”
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche to me.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
I was just wildly speculating. But you know, to my mind, getting rid of the whole Tulku thing would be no bad thing.
And to answer Simon, interesting question about Ole. How will we integrate Ole into a reunited Karma Kagyu? Lot of people would have a problem with that. Can't see him ever being invited to my local center
This is not the wrong life.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
AFAIK the DWB has no official statement to it. DWB buddhist groups I follow on FB didn't even share the news. Soo I am very interested in it. After all Ole kinda built his reputation around the whole two karmapas situation. But I do believe (or hope) that his devotion towards Karmapa is bigger than his ego. After all he can be whatever he is but he still did a good share of good stuff.
“Observing samaya involves to remain inseparable from the union of wisdom and compassion at all times, to sustain mindfulness, and to put into practice the guru’s instructions”. Garchen Rinpoche
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
For those who do virtuous actions,
goodness is what comes to pass.
For those who do non-virtuous actions,
that becomes suffering indeed.
- Arya Sanghata Sutra
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Yeah but the whole far right thing would certainly be an issue for many of OTD's followers. And as you point out, Ole's prominence is due in large part to the controversy. Where does that leave him if it is resolved and his support is not required anymore?Miroku wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:29 am AFAIK the DWB has no official statement to it. DWB buddhist groups I follow on FB didn't even share the news. Soo I am very interested in it. After all Ole kinda built his reputation around the whole two karmapas situation. But I do believe (or hope) that his devotion towards Karmapa is bigger than his ego. After all he can be whatever he is but he still did a good share of good stuff.
But, I suppose best to not anticipate - at least so soon in the process. Who knows what'll happen and what change people are capable of making?
This is not the wrong life.
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Basically I think I agree about tulkus - but in this case, in the case of the Karmapa it would be a massive move.Knotty Veneer wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:25 amI was just wildly speculating. But you know, to my mind, getting rid of the whole Tulku thing would be no bad thing.
And to answer Simon, interesting question about Ole. How will we integrate Ole into a reunited Karma Kagyu? Lot of people would have a problem with that. Can't see him ever being invited to my local center
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Indeed:Simon E. wrote: ↑Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:09 amHas Ole Pronounced yet?Seeker12 wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 pmDo you know of any "fervent supporters" acting like schoolboys still on Thaye Dorje's side? All I have seen is happiness for the meeting.conebeckham wrote: ↑Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm
I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
___
Great and noble students and friends everywhere,
From the far west my thoughts to the historical meeting in rural France between our Gyalwa Karmapa, Thaye Dorje and Orgyen Trinley.
Most important for our work is that the Karma Kagyu linage becomes united again and stays unbreakably so into the future, able to express the whole richness of our transmission.
Therefore, please continue your practice without unnecessary speculation and as always with full confidence in Karmapa Thaye Dorje, who knows what is best for our lineage, and closely support him.
All the best to you all and please don’t share any assumptions until the picture is complete. We should not stand with egg on our face in this most important matter.
Yours, Lama Ole
“Whoever wants to find the wisdom beyond intellect without praying to his guru is like someone waiting for the sun to shine in a cave facing the north. He will never realize appearances and his mind to be one.”
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Kyabje Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche
Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas
Shamarpa on Two Karmapas becoming friends
http://www.hardnewsmedia.com/2018/10/wi ... competitor
http://www.mydigitalfc.com/fc-weekend/d ... a-intrigue
http://www.hardnewsmedia.com/2018/10/wi ... competitor
http://www.mydigitalfc.com/fc-weekend/d ... a-intrigue
Ole sent this message to all DW centres...
Great and noble students and friends everywhere,
From the far west my thoughts to the historical meeting in rural France between our Gyalwa Karmapa, Thaye Dorje and Orgyen Trinley.
Most important for our work is that the Karma Kagyu linage becomes united again and stays unbreakably so into the future, able to express the whole richness of our transmission.
Therefore, please continue your practice without unnecessary speculation and as always with full confidence in Karmapa Thaye Dorje, who knows what is best for our lineage, and closely support him.
All the best to you all and please don’t share any assumptions until the picture is complete. We should not stand with egg on our face in this most important matter.
Yours, Lama Ole