Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:48 pm

I think that, despite the paucity of information about this meeting, there are a couple of interesting points that I haven’t seen raised anywhere.

The first is that the meeting lasted over several days – unlike Ogyen Trinley’s meeting with Shamarpa in 2007 which only lasted an hour or two. Clearly they have had time to talk in-depth, socialize and no doubt pray together. This I think shows significant commitment on both their parts and this has gone beyond “talks about talks”.

Secondly, neither party is referred to as Karmapa in the press release. I don’t know if means anything for any eventual resolution but it is interesting.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Seeker12
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Seeker12 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:55 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:48 pm

The first is that the meeting lasted over several days – unlike Ogyen Trinley’s meeting with Shamarpa in 2007 which only lasted an hour or two. Clearly they have had time to talk in-depth, socialize and no doubt pray together. This I think shows significant commitment on both their parts and this has gone beyond “talks about talks”.
Thanks for pointing that out, that is noteworthy.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

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conebeckham
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by conebeckham » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:48 pm
I think that, despite the paucity of information about this meeting, there are a couple of interesting points that I haven’t seen raised anywhere.

The first is that the meeting lasted over several days – unlike Ogyen Trinley’s meeting with Shamarpa in 2007 which only lasted an hour or two. Clearly they have had time to talk in-depth, socialize and no doubt pray together. This I think shows significant commitment on both their parts and this has gone beyond “talks about talks”.

Secondly, neither party is referred to as Karmapa in the press release. I don’t know if means anything for any eventual resolution but it is interesting.
Correct. I don't know how closely any of you interact with Tibetan Karma Kagyu community, but I know quite a few ex-monks who are "up in arms" about the meeting. Some are quite upset, and are citing prior statments by Lamas like Thrangu Rinpoche about "One Karmapa," etc. People have jumped to conclusions, it seems.....there was a meeting, but no statement or announcement of any weight regarding anything changing institutionally or in terms of identity. And those who seems displeased, don't they recognize that it was apparently the will of HHGK OTD to meet? As far as I can tell, at least......

I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

smcj
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by smcj » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:19 pm

I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams
“Lama Dramas” can be sooooo seductive!

:tantrum: :woohoo: :tantrum: :woohoo: :tantrum:
I support Mingyur R and HHDL in their positions against Lama abuse.

Gatinho
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Gatinho » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:21 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:48 pm
I think that, despite the paucity of information about this meeting, there are a couple of interesting points that I haven’t seen raised anywhere.

The first is that the meeting lasted over several days – unlike Ogyen Trinley’s meeting with Shamarpa in 2007 which only lasted an hour or two. Clearly they have had time to talk in-depth, socialize and no doubt pray together. This I think shows significant commitment on both their parts and this has gone beyond “talks about talks”.

Secondly, neither party is referred to as Karmapa in the press release. I don’t know if means anything for any eventual resolution but it is interesting.
Correct. I don't know how closely any of you interact with Tibetan Karma Kagyu community, but I know quite a few ex-monks who are "up in arms" about the meeting. Some are quite upset, and are citing prior statments by Lamas like Thrangu Rinpoche about "One Karmapa," etc. People have jumped to conclusions, it seems.....there was a meeting, but no statement or announcement of any weight regarding anything changing institutionally or in terms of identity. And those who seems displeased, don't they recognize that it was apparently the will of HHGK OTD to meet? As far as I can tell, at least......

I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
Both are, to some extent at least, victims of a political dharma situation (a drama perhaps!) and to be congratulated for stepping outside this to hopefully create a warm personal relationship of mutual understanding - if this is what has happened. Institutional change - if it ever comes - is secondary and we can wait for this. Compassion trumps hatred - I hope this is what this means. Even if the problems of etiquette and polity are never resolved they matter much less now.

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm

Correct. I don't know how closely any of you interact with Tibetan Karma Kagyu community, but I know quite a few ex-monks who are "up in arms" about the meeting. Some are quite upset, and are citing prior statments by Lamas like Thrangu Rinpoche about "One Karmapa," etc. People have jumped to conclusions, it seems.....there was a meeting, but no statement or announcement of any weight regarding anything changing institutionally or in terms of identity. And those who seems displeased, don't they recognize that it was apparently the will of HHGK OTD to meet? As far as I can tell, at least......

I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
Sorry to hear there are those who are not seeing this as something positive. And you're right this is an initiative that has been driven at least in equal part by Karmapa Ogyen Trinley.

If the real problem is who gets to be Karmapa, then perhaps a "thinking- out-of-the-box" solution may be to retire the institution itself - just as the Dalai Lama has considered ending his role. Who knows?

I hope both leaders have the space and courage to ignore any vested interests for the good of the lineage as a whole.
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Seeker12
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Seeker12 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm

I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
Do you know of any "fervent supporters" acting like schoolboys still on Thaye Dorje's side? All I have seen is happiness for the meeting.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by anjali » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:38 pm

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 pm
If the real problem is who gets to be Karmapa, then perhaps a "thinking- out-of-the-box" solution may be to retire the institution itself - just as the Dalai Lama has considered ending his role. Who knows?
Another interesting alternative would be to follow the approach of the Sakhya Trizin position: Sakya Trizin post to be alternated three-yearly between two ruling scions
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conebeckham
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by conebeckham » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:55 pm

Seeker12 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm

I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
Do you know of any "fervent supporters" acting like schoolboys still on Thaye Dorje's side? All I have seen is happiness for the meeting.
To be frank, no.

Also, to be clear, I was speaking of Tibetans and most especially of monks or ex-monks. Those Thaye Dorje supporters I know are all "Non-Tibetan," though I had some unpleasant interactions with Thaye Dorje Tibetans decades ago, in Sikkim. I hope everyone, on both sides of the issue, recognizes that both of these men are acting of their own free will, I believe, and for the benefit of the lineage.
དམ་པའི་དོན་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ཆེ་བ་དང་།
རྟོག་གེའི་ཡུལ་མིན་བླ་མའི་བྱིན་རླབས་དང་།
སྐལ་ལྡན་ལས་འཕྲོ་ཅན་གྱིས་རྟོགས་པ་སྟེ།
དེ་ནི་ཤེས་རབ་ལ་ནི་ལོ་རྟོག་སེལ།།


"Absolute Truth is not an object of analytical discourse or great discriminating wisdom,
It is realized through the blessing grace of the Guru and fortunate Karmic potential.
Like this, mistaken ideas of discriminating wisdom are clarified."
- (Kyabje Bokar Rinpoche, from his summary of "The Ocean of Definitive Meaning")

Seeker12
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Seeker12 » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:15 pm

conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:55 pm

To be frank, no.

Also, to be clear, I was speaking of Tibetans and most especially of monks or ex-monks. Those Thaye Dorje supporters I know are all "Non-Tibetan," though I had some unpleasant interactions with Thaye Dorje Tibetans decades ago, in Sikkim. I hope everyone, on both sides of the issue, recognizes that both of these men are acting of their own free will, I believe, and for the benefit of the lineage.
I'm most familiar with Thaye Dorje's side, and indeed early on there were tensions it seemed both ways but for a long time now it's basically been a non-issue from what I've seen. Universally, without any exceptions at all, the only response I've seen from people I know is happiness for the meeting.

Anyway, I was just curious, as I hadn't seen any problems. Thanks.
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:47 pm

anjali wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:38 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 pm
If the real problem is who gets to be Karmapa, then perhaps a "thinking- out-of-the-box" solution may be to retire the institution itself - just as the Dalai Lama has considered ending his role. Who knows?
Another interesting alternative would be to follow the approach of the Sakhya Trizin position: Sakya Trizin post to be alternated three-yearly between two ruling scions
That could certainly be a possibility. Although the 16th Karmapa's 4 regents were supposed to rotate leadership every 3 years in the period after Karmapa XVI's death and that didn't really work out. Maybe this generation could make it work. Again, who knows?
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Gatinho
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Gatinho » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:43 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:47 pm
anjali wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:38 pm
Knotty Veneer wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 pm
If the real problem is who gets to be Karmapa, then perhaps a "thinking- out-of-the-box" solution may be to retire the institution itself - just as the Dalai Lama has considered ending his role. Who knows?
Another interesting alternative would be to follow the approach of the Sakhya Trizin position: Sakya Trizin post to be alternated three-yearly between two ruling scions
That could certainly be a possibility. Although the 16th Karmapa's 4 regents were supposed to rotate leadership every 3 years in the period after Karmapa XVI's death and that didn't really work out. Maybe this generation could make it work. Again, who knows?

Wouldn't that knock the whole tulku thing on the head? If being the Karmapa is just a role or post - like being CEO of Karma Kagyu Inc.

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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Wayfarer » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:50 am

You have to allow for human error. Even here.
Only practice with no gaining idea ~ Suzuki Roshi

Simon E.
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Simon E. » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:09 am

Seeker12 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm

I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
Do you know of any "fervent supporters" acting like schoolboys still on Thaye Dorje's side? All I have seen is happiness for the meeting.
Has Ole Pronounced yet? :popcorn:
Back to fishin' folks... :namaste:

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:25 am

Gatinho wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:43 am

Wouldn't that knock the whole tulku thing on the head? If being the Karmapa is just a role or post - like being CEO of Karma Kagyu Inc.
I was just wildly speculating. But you know, to my mind, getting rid of the whole Tulku thing would be no bad thing.

And to answer Simon, interesting question about Ole. How will we integrate Ole into a reunited Karma Kagyu? Lot of people would have a problem with that. Can't see him ever being invited to my local center
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Miroku
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Miroku » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:29 am

AFAIK the DWB has no official statement to it. DWB buddhist groups I follow on FB didn't even share the news. Soo I am very interested in it. After all Ole kinda built his reputation around the whole two karmapas situation. But I do believe (or hope) that his devotion towards Karmapa is bigger than his ego. After all he can be whatever he is but he still did a good share of good stuff.
Child, if you are not hypocritical and out of control, that is conduct.
~ Padampa Sangye

You say such clever things to people, but you do not apply them to yourself.
The faults within you are the ones to be exposed.
~ Padampa Sangye

Knotty Veneer
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Knotty Veneer » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:58 am

Miroku wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:29 am
AFAIK the DWB has no official statement to it. DWB buddhist groups I follow on FB didn't even share the news. Soo I am very interested in it. After all Ole kinda built his reputation around the whole two karmapas situation. But I do believe (or hope) that his devotion towards Karmapa is bigger than his ego. After all he can be whatever he is but he still did a good share of good stuff.
Yeah but the whole far right thing would certainly be an issue for many of OTD's followers. And as you point out, Ole's prominence is due in large part to the controversy. Where does that leave him if it is resolved and his support is not required anymore?

But, I suppose best to not anticipate - at least so soon in the process. Who knows what'll happen and what change people are capable of making?
“If you are going to put people on pedestals, at least wear a big hat” - Jake Thackray.

Gatinho
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Gatinho » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:40 am

Knotty Veneer wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:25 am
Gatinho wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:43 am

Wouldn't that knock the whole tulku thing on the head? If being the Karmapa is just a role or post - like being CEO of Karma Kagyu Inc.
I was just wildly speculating. But you know, to my mind, getting rid of the whole Tulku thing would be no bad thing.

And to answer Simon, interesting question about Ole. How will we integrate Ole into a reunited Karma Kagyu? Lot of people would have a problem with that. Can't see him ever being invited to my local center
Basically I think I agree about tulkus - but in this case, in the case of the Karmapa it would be a massive move.

Seeker12
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by Seeker12 » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:55 pm

Simon E. wrote:
Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:09 am
Seeker12 wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:42 pm
conebeckham wrote:
Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:08 pm

I hate to say it, but many of the most fervent "supporters" of each side in the conflict are continuing to act like schoolboys brawling over their football teams.
Do you know of any "fervent supporters" acting like schoolboys still on Thaye Dorje's side? All I have seen is happiness for the meeting.
Has Ole Pronounced yet? :popcorn:
Indeed:

___

Great and noble students and friends everywhere,

From the far west my thoughts to the historical meeting in rural France between our Gyalwa Karmapa, Thaye Dorje and Orgyen Trinley.

Most important for our work is that the Karma Kagyu linage becomes united again and stays unbreakably so into the future, able to express the whole richness of our transmission.

Therefore, please continue your practice without unnecessary speculation and as always with full confidence in Karmapa Thaye Dorje, who knows what is best for our lineage, and closely support him.

All the best to you all and please don’t share any assumptions until the picture is complete. We should not stand with egg on our face in this most important matter.

Yours, Lama Ole
Therein is nothing to remove
And thereto not the slightest thing to add.
The perfect truth viewed perfectly
And perfectly beheld is liberation.

Uttaratantra

crazy-man
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Re: Joint Statement of the Two Karmapas

Post by crazy-man » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:08 pm

Shamarpa on Two Karmapas becoming friends


http://www.hardnewsmedia.com/2018/10/wi ... competitor

http://www.mydigitalfc.com/fc-weekend/d ... a-intrigue
Ole sent this message to all DW centres...
Great and noble students and friends everywhere,
From the far west my thoughts to the historical meeting in rural France between our Gyalwa Karmapa, Thaye Dorje and Orgyen Trinley.
Most important for our work is that the Karma Kagyu linage becomes united again and stays unbreakably so into the future, able to express the whole richness of our transmission.
Therefore, please continue your practice without unnecessary speculation and as always with full confidence in Karmapa Thaye Dorje, who knows what is best for our lineage, and closely support him.
All the best to you all and please don’t share any assumptions until the picture is complete. We should not stand with egg on our face in this most important matter.
Yours, Lama Ole

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